Poll: Shutdown drags Trump approval to yearlong low

President Donald Trump pauses while speaking during a healthcare roundtable in the Roosevelt Room of the White House, Jan. 23, 2019, in Washington, D.C. | Associated Press photo by Jacquelyn Martin, St. George News

WASHINGTON (AP) — A strong majority of Americans blame President Donald Trump for the record-long government shutdown and reject his primary rationale for a border wall, according to a new poll that shows the turmoil in Washington is dragging his approval rating to its lowest level in more than a year.

Overall, 34 percent of Americans approve of Trump’s job performance in a survey conducted by The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research. That’s down from 42 percent a month earlier and nears the lowest mark of his two-year presidency.

The president’s approval among Republicans remains close to 80 percent, but his standing with independents is among its lowest points of his time in office.

“Trump is responsible for this,” said poll respondent Lloyd Rabalais, a federal contractor from Slidell, Louisiana, who’s not affiliated with either political party.

The 47-year-old has been furloughed for more than a month. He said he’d need to start drawing on his retirement savings next week to pay his bills if the shutdown continues.

“I do support a wall, but not the way he’s handling it,” Rabalais added. “Trump guaranteed everybody that Mexico would pay for the wall. Now he’s holding American workers like me hostage.”

The drop in approval comes as Trump begins the third year of his presidency under the weight of the longest government shutdown in U.S. history, an international trade war that’s straining the global economy and new revelations about his push for a real estate deal in Russia during his 2016 campaign.

Graphic shows results of AP-NORC Center poll President Donald Trump’s job approval and on attitudes toward the partial federal shutdown. | Image provided by Associated Press, St. George News | Click to enlarge.

Compared with earlier presidents, Trump’s approval rating has been relatively stable over the course of his presidency, ranging from the mid-30s to the mid-40s.

By contrast, President Barack Obama never fell below 40 percent in polling by Gallup. Still, five presidents since Gallup began measuring presidential approval have had their rating fall into the 20s at least once, including Harry S. Truman, Richard Nixon, Jimmy Carter, George H.W. Bush and George W. Bush. Trump has never fallen into that range of historic lows, but he’s also the only president never to have reached 50 percent in Gallup’s polling.

The new AP-NORC poll shows most Americans see the shutdown as a major problem, and they blame Trump far more than congressional Democrats for the mess that has ensnared the lives of roughly 800,000 government workers who are going without pay.

Click to enlarge. Sixty percent of Americans say Trump bears a great deal of responsibility for the shutdown. About a third place the same amount of blame on congressional Democrats (31 percent) or Republicans (36 percent).

Sixty-five percent of Americans, including 86 percent of Democrats, 69 percent of independents and 33 percent of Republicans, call the shutdown a major problem.

Trump may be popular overall with Republicans, but a sizable share holds him responsible for the current situation. Almost 3 in 10 Republicans think Trump bears a great deal of responsibility, while 73 percent of his party says he’s at least partly responsible.

“The large part of the responsibility belongs to the president because he made the decision,” said poll respondent Sandra Olson, of Northwood, Iowa. The 76-year-old registered Republican said she voted for Trump once and likely will again.

“We have never in my lifetime seen a president who has been so maligned and attacked and vilified,” Olson said.

Trump’s demand for a $5.7 billion border wall is also unpopular.

Overall, 49 percent of Americans oppose the plan to build a massive wall along the Mexican border; 36 percent of the nation is in favor. Opinions fall largely along ideological lines, with 8 in 10 Democrats opposing the wall and nearly 8 in 10 Republicans supporting it.

About 7 in 10 supporters of the wall prefer to extend the shutdown than to reach a deal without funding it, while a nearly identical number on the other side would rather the shutdown continue than provide that funding.

The poll shows significant skepticism of the president’s argument that a wall would significantly reduce crime, stem the flow of illegal drugs or help the U.S. economy. The poll was conducted the week after Trump used such factors to justify his demand for the wall during a prime time address from the Oval Office.

In the nationally televised speech, he highlighted the case of one immigrant in the country illegally accused of beheading and dismembering an American citizen.

About 6 in 10 Americans do say the wall would at least slightly decrease the number of people entering the U.S. illegally, though only 3 in 10 think the number would significantly decrease.

Yet just 35 percent of Americans believe the wall would make the country safer, while a majority of Americans – 57 percent – believe it would make no difference to safety in the U.S.

Only 21 percent believe the wall would significantly reduce the availability of illegal drugs in the nation, though 28 percent say access to illegal drugs would be slightly reduced; 49 percent say the wall would have no effect.

On the economy, about as many Americans say the border wall would do more to help – almost 3 in 10 – as say it would do more to hurt; 43 percent say the wall would not make much difference to the U.S. economy.

Poll respondent Kelley Thorson, of St. Robert, Missouri, who backed Trump in the 2016 election, says she supports the wall but largely disagrees with the president’s rationale.

“I can’t say it would make us safer,” the 57-year-old said. “Criminals are going to get here no matter what.”

While partisan opinions of Trump have remained relatively constant throughout his presidency, the poll shows that disapproval has grown particularly among independents who do not lean toward either party.

Just 28 percent of independents say they approve, compared with 71 percent who disapprove. In December, 37 percent of independents approved of Trump’s job performance, while 58 percent disapproved.

Women also are more likely to disapprove today compared with a month ago – 71 percent to 58 percent. And 76 percent of college graduates disapprove today, compared with 65 percent who disapproved in December.

The president isn’t doing anything well right now, said poll respondent J. Edwin Hixson, a 71-year-old retired truck driver from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, who didn’t vote for Trump or Democrat Hillary Clinton in the 2016 election.

“This isn’t a reality show. We’re in serious trouble,” he said.

The AP-NORC poll of 1,062 adults was conducted Jan. 16 to 20 using a sample drawn from NORC’s probability-based AmeriSpeak Panel, which is designed to be representative of the U.S. population. The margin of sampling error for all respondents is plus or minus 4.1 percentage points.

Respondents were first selected randomly using address-based sampling methods, and later interviewed online or by phone.

Written by STEVE PEOPLES and EMILY SWANSON, Associated Press. Peoples reported from New York.

Email: [email protected]

Twitter: @STGnews

Copyright 2019 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

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  • Redbud January 23, 2019 at 10:22 pm

    Trump is to blame for the shutdown, but Nancy is responsible for the continuation of it. Therefore, we approve of Trump, but not Pelosi. The swamp continues to drain, and what a glorious sight to behold!

    • iceplant January 24, 2019 at 5:28 am

      You and your delusions. Sad.

      • Happy Commenter January 24, 2019 at 8:43 am

        Says the left brained vegetable matter…

        • iceplant January 24, 2019 at 9:09 am

          Keep being John, John.

        • bikeandfish January 24, 2019 at 10:14 am

          You do realize you just complimented IcePlant, correct? “Left brained” is associated with linear, analytical thought, ie critical thinking.

          • Happy Commenter January 25, 2019 at 12:16 pm

            That seedling is just that.. a seedling!

      • really January 24, 2019 at 2:57 pm

        Remember the polls that Hillary would win in a “landslide”? Lost a lot of faith in polls after that one. LOL

        • bikeandfish January 24, 2019 at 3:35 pm

          The polls themselves didn’t prove to be as flawed as most pundits claimed. At the national level the polls were only off by one point. It was what happened at the state levels, specifically a handful, that proved to be problematic. Specifically, the number of polls being conducted at the state level have noticeably dropped since 2010.

          Another problem was the narrative didn’t match the poll designs. This is especially true given its nearly impossible to predict turnout accurately. And we had never seen such a split in certain demographics, like education, before the 2016 election.

          The major pollsters have adapted for those issues but the big issue still needs to be creating an awareness of what the polls mean and inversely don’t mean. Major news rooms across the country need to do a better job of that.

          Here was a good discussion highlighting some of the analysis:


          Another big difference was in 2016 Trump voters wouldn’t admit an interest in voting for him to pollsters. As these new polls highlight, those voters are the very ones talking now and openly rating his performance lower; ironically many say they will likely vote for him in 2020. That’s a complicated issue to unwrap.

          • Happy Commenter January 24, 2019 at 4:25 pm

            All those words and you said nothing. PBS happens to be the most left biased fake news source you could use, no wonder nobody takes you seriously!

          • iceplant January 24, 2019 at 5:27 pm

            Still waiting for you to back up your baseless assertions, John.
            Keep avoiding the subject by diverting to your failed dismantling of b&f throwing truth at you.
            “But… but… PBS is the mostest left biasedest fakest news source on planet Erff !!!”

            Sad. 🙁

          • bikeandfish January 24, 2019 at 5:28 pm

            Thanks for your concern, John-lite. Now PBS is the most left leaning source available? Just to verify, they are more left leaning than CNN, HuffPo, MSNBC (you call her Madcow, right?), Young Turks, The Intercept, or Daily Kos? Just trying to keep up with your well-reasoned, thoughtful response.

            Thank you again for taking the time to edify me in such a constructive way, sir. You truly are a dingleberry amongst turds.

        • Red2Blue310 January 24, 2019 at 8:50 pm

          She DID WIN IN A LANDSLIDE, 3 million more than Trump. And thr Russians helped him.

          • really January 24, 2019 at 11:08 pm

            TDS much? There is an electoral college in this country. You have to win in the electoral college to win the election. Hillary did not. I thought someone like you would understand all this but maybe its just an excuse to complain about something you can’t change, no matter how much you try. See you in the tissue isle Nov. 2020.

          • bikeandfish January 25, 2019 at 1:24 pm

            Hold on, really. There is an Isle of Tissues? Are there a special type of tree that grows there that we use to make tissues?

  • mshaw January 23, 2019 at 11:20 pm

    I support trump he is not playing there game he will win he is five steps ahead of them. Remember the Democrats voted for the wall a few years back but now oppose it at least he has the balls to stand up and fight for us!!!! I hope he declares the national emergency and does it anyway!! I’m behind you 100 percent

    • iceplant January 24, 2019 at 5:38 am

      Can’t declare an emergency when there isn’t one.

      • Happy Commenter January 24, 2019 at 8:44 am

        But there is one. What’s your point this time, poison ivy?

        • iceplant January 24, 2019 at 9:24 am

          Please feel free to point out where this emergency is happening. You must use facts.
          All I see is a manufactured crisis meant to distract from the fact that the Mueller investigation is inching closer to the Big Boss Baby. Republicans held a majority for 2 years and they didn’t do a single thing about this stupid wall. Here we are all of a sudden with this phantom “emergency” and if we don’t do something now, now, NOW the country is in peril. And you dingbats keep swallowing his shovels full of garbage like it’s filet mignon.

          Prove there’s an emergency, Johnny. Use facts.

        • bikeandfish January 24, 2019 at 10:08 am

          Can you show me in the law where the current situation meets the definitions? You can write it in crayon if you want, John(-lite).

          • Happy Commenter January 25, 2019 at 12:21 pm

            Obnoxious and ill-informed. Why don’t you do some research for yourself? You wouldn’t understand crayon anyway, it would be over your head!

          • bikeandfish January 25, 2019 at 12:59 pm

            Thanks, John-lite. Your profound thoughts challenge me daily. I am a better person because of your contributions. My entire being shines brighter with each of your comments. Thank you again! I’ve never understood why others believe you are so inept, hateful or as useless as an ejection seat on a helicopter. Just leaves me scratching my head.

          • Happy Commenter January 25, 2019 at 1:28 pm

            Obnoxious and ill-informed.. nobody thinks you are intelligent, just loud and liberal, spouting left wing fake news with every breath. Nobody uses more words to say so little as you do!

    • bikeandfish January 24, 2019 at 10:12 am

      To be clear, they voted for a comprehensive border security bill that originated in Congress. Its apples and oranges. They didn’t approve a CR that funded a border wall by a president using a shutdown as leverage. They didn’t approve funding for a border wall based on the scapegoating of a demagogue who is manufacturing a crisis. The situations are not remotely the same.

    • Red2Blue310 January 24, 2019 at 8:57 pm

      Hey wheres the pesos that Trump said would pay for this wall? Now our people are out of work, putting homeland security at risk, and Trump and his rich cronies cant understand the problem with that because they’re never going to know what its like to live paycneck to paycheck. Now its the dems and our problem to pay for this ridiculous wall to serve it up for Trumper fools who dont care about this country.

  • Utahguns January 24, 2019 at 12:05 am

    AP The most miserable news reporting agency alive. Wish they were dead.

    • bikeandfish January 24, 2019 at 10:05 am

      You are doing a demagogues dirty work. Trump just planted the seed. Wishing a press organization death is beyond extreme.

      • Utahguns January 24, 2019 at 6:36 pm

        So friggin what…
        You and icepunk are poisoning these comment sections with your radical socialist thoughts.
        There’s a better alternative for you jokers….working on a lobster boat in the Bering Sea.
        It’ll make a man out of you, if that’s at all possible.

        • KR567 January 24, 2019 at 8:13 pm

          It’s not. !!

        • bikeandfish January 24, 2019 at 8:17 pm

          Oh, please do show me my “radical socialist thoughts”?

          Is it my support for bodily autonomy, reproductive freedom and personal liberty? Nope, that’s all based in the liberal ideals that founded this country.

          Is it my belief that our bicameral Congress should create real funding bills that includes debates dealing with the complexity of our national security in relation to Constitutional parameters and national character? No, that’s actually founded in the republicanism.

          Is that I believe its the job our Congress to diligently check the power grabs of the Executive? No, that’s also republicanism.

          Is it my diligent support of a free press in the wake of an executive that constantly attacks it? No, that’s also based on liberal constitutional ideals.

          Huh, interesting how critical analysis works.

          Yet I’m the one spouting “radical” and “socialist” ideas, not the one who states such opposing views should be sent to the Bering Sea. Ironic, as I think its socialist countries that deal with political opposition so harshly. I think it’s pluralistic, republics like ours that openly allow differing views to disagre in public settings without resorting to such antics.

        • iceplant January 24, 2019 at 8:36 pm

          LMAO @ “radical socialist thoughts.”

          Hahahaha… oh man, thanks for the laugh. 😉

  • iceplant January 24, 2019 at 5:36 am

    Not a fan of Pelosi but shutting down Trump’s ability to hold the SOTU address in the house was… EPIC!
    This clown show will continue to roll on, however. As we have a gaggle of gutless turds in the Republican party who refuse to stand up to this wannabee mob boss/dictator/authoritarian/racist. You reap what you sow, Donnie.

    America will take many years to recover from this human dumpster fire. Hopefully, it will be put out soon.

    • Real Life January 24, 2019 at 9:53 am

      Not that this administration is that great, America may never recover fully from the dumpster fire that was the Obama administration. And it’s funny that you know that Pelosi is garbage but are okay with her “epic” continuation of the govt. shut down simply because of your pure hatred for Trump. It’s ironic that angry, hate filled, fascist people like yourself is what got him elected in the first place.

      • iceplant January 24, 2019 at 11:30 am

        “fascist people like yourself”

        Keep pretending you know what fascism means.
        [hint:] I’m not a fascist. 😛

        • Real Life January 24, 2019 at 8:54 pm

          Hint, yes you are.

        • Real Life January 24, 2019 at 10:46 pm

          Funny thing about fascists, they are the last one’s to realize that they are indeed fascists.

  • Not_So_Much January 24, 2019 at 6:52 am

    Looking forward to voting for President Trump in 2020.

    • Red2Blue310 January 24, 2019 at 9:01 pm

      You can visit him in prison along with all the other traitors he hired around him. What is wrong with you? Corrupt, traitor, cheat, crook, liar, money launderer are just a few descriptions that come to mind. Jesus.

  • justsaying January 24, 2019 at 9:41 am

    I had a delicious bagel for breakfast this morning.

    • AnnieMated January 24, 2019 at 12:20 pm

      Did you put Cream cheese on it?

  • ladybugavenger January 24, 2019 at 10:29 am

    Looks like we could could shut down at least 400,000 if not 800,000 positions in the government and be just fine.

    • iceplant January 24, 2019 at 11:30 am

      Could you BE any more anti-American?

      • bikeandfish January 24, 2019 at 11:52 am

        Don’t use their extreme rhetoric. There may be no going back if we get into falsely claiming who supports America on both sides. And sadly, we have plenty of American history that falls in line with her view.

        • iceplant January 24, 2019 at 12:36 pm

          Yeah, you’re right. The Reagan incident where he fired all the air traffic controllers comes to mind. But that’s small beans compared to half a million people or more. It would have a drastic effect on the economy as well. I wish these people who stand behind Trump could see just how much damage this is doing. Not only in the present but the future. This isn’t something we’re going to simply overcome in a short time. Trump is doing long term damage his followers are completely blind to or willfully ignore. I don’t even think they’ll get it when it hits them the hardest. Blind loyalty is dangerous beyond words.

          • bikeandfish January 24, 2019 at 1:37 pm

            And the damage and the harm is the point. Steve Bannon openly talked about using Trump to dismantle the administrative state and what we know as the nation state in general. The chaos is one way to continue that process. And they aren’t even trying to hide it. Its all ironic given its supposed to be for “national security” but this shutdown has made us less safe from terrorism, cyber attacks, border security (no trials = no deportations), etc.

    • bikeandfish January 24, 2019 at 11:50 am

      Do you support the wall? If so, the organizations that run it have employees in those numbers.

      Are you against drug and human trafficking? If so, the Coast Guard employees aren’t being paid.

      Do you believe we need to actively manage our forests and lands, including timber harvest? If so, USFS and BLM employees are unpaid.

      Do you believe the elderly who rely on food stamps should have access to that help? If so, those USDA offices are furloughed and those funds will run out soon.

      Do you like safe food and water? If so, those agencies are staffed bare bones and aren’t testing suppliers or researching contaminations. Remember the romaine lettuce contaminated with cattle lot runoff that hurt so many Americans?

      Do you believe we need reliable fisheries? If so, NOAA and USFWS are not working which affects the viability of every ocean fish and ocean run fish.

      Do want to be able to retire off a market based account? Its reliant on the strength of the dollar which is tanking as our GDP crashes 0.1% each week this goes on.

      To just name a few. Out west, our economies are being hit directly because so much of our workforce is employed by the fed. But one reason this shutdown isn’t “affecting” as many areas is because it was manipulated to do that. In the past, more was shutdown, as it was historically designed to be by legislation. Now the administration has politicized it so historically non-essential employees must work to minimize political fallout in key areas. Its a type of cronyism and quid pro quo.

      • Redbud January 24, 2019 at 3:30 pm

        If Trump is doing the right thing for America, which he no doubt is, who cares?

        Build That Wall!

        • bikeandfish January 24, 2019 at 3:43 pm

          “Which he no doubt is?”

          If you don’t care about facts and reality that’s fine by me but there isn’t just doubt that he’s doing what’s right for the country but that he may be doing harm.

          National security? TSA, pilot and air traffic union have all highlighted how our airlines are less safe. You know, the way terrorists actually attacked the US almost 20 years ago. Or how about the FBI union making it explicitly clear how the shutdown is hampering their work to vet people and issues stateside?

          Or how about the fact that tons of deportation cases haven’t been tried because of the shutdown? These are people who overwhelming are deported that now get to stay in the country for years longer. How does that mesh with Trump’s claim to be trying to combat the issue of illegal immigration.

          So tell me, how has our country been made safer these last 35 days?

          • Redbud January 24, 2019 at 5:19 pm

            You get your so called “facts” from fake news, therefore your facts are fake, and therefore not facts at all, but lies! No air security? That’s ok, just shut down all air travel until Nancy stops holding us hostage. Let the mayhem begin! I will sit back and enjoy the show, while all you fake news believers get taken for a ride.

          • bikeandfish January 24, 2019 at 5:39 pm

            That’s right, anything that doesn’t 100% support your dear leaders wanton demands is fake news. I almost forgot.

            Its even funnier as I didn’t provide any sources this time. Its being reported across multiple platforms and is the actual words of the experts in the fields.

            Good grief! The mass delusion taking hold of folks like Redbud is saddening. But that’s part of the strategy of demagogues.

          • Redbud January 24, 2019 at 6:52 pm

            So supporting a President that stands up for our freedom makes me delusional? Ok I’ll let you go ahead and believe that, your credibility is still non-existant anyways. I’d rather live my life my way, than support people like you and Pelosi who are always seeking out bitter, anti-american hatred towards true Americans. Go ahead and live your sour life hating people who defend our constitutional rights. In the end, the only person you end up harming is yourself.

          • bikeandfish January 24, 2019 at 8:02 pm


            To answer your statement:

            “So supporting a President that stands up for our freedom makes me delusional?”

            Not at all. Since you seem to be too lazy to take things in context I’ll do the work for you. My statement that “The mass delusion taking hold of folks like Redbud is saddening. But that’s part of the strategy of demagogues” is a concluding sentence that summarizes my opening one that “anything that doesn’t 100% support your dear leaders wanton demands is fake news. I almost forgot.”. The “mass delusion” is an outcome of a “strategy” that subverts critical thinking of loyal followers. Not only do they believe, but to also aggressively forward, the demagoguery that is inherent to the philosophy that “fake news” is anything that “doesn’t 100% support” Trump’s claims. Your behavior on this forum substantiates and supports that observation of mine. Feel free to change your approach and show us you can think independently and critically. You can start by using your own words instead of campaign slogans and the administration’s propoganda and quips.

            My #freedumb was stolen by the #hamberdler

          • Redbud January 24, 2019 at 9:29 pm

            I don’t need your opinion on what I can and can’t say, not going to entertain your self-serving anti-american views. Trump 2020!

          • bikeandfish January 24, 2019 at 10:35 pm


            Never said what you can and can’t say; its a free country and relatively unmoderated forum. I just recommended you start thinking and speaking for yourself if you don’t want people to label the BS propaganda for what it truly is. “Fake news” isn’t working on critical thinkers but it never was designed to target us.

            Until then I’ll keep responding to your nonsense the same way.

          • Redbud January 25, 2019 at 8:55 pm

            Critical thinkers can separate facts from fiction. We all know what category you fit in, but that’s ok, ignorance is bliss.

          • bikeandfish January 25, 2019 at 9:44 pm

            The irony is rich with the “fake news” fanatic. My favorite strategy of yours is the “I know you are but what am I”. Especially in regards to your ironic use of it with critical thinking now. It is very entertaining.

    • Comment January 24, 2019 at 12:52 pm

      those were my thoughts, LBA. If gov’t workers are “non-essential” why are they kept around?

      • bikeandfish January 24, 2019 at 1:34 pm

        First, those haven’t been the official government terms for 24 years. The actual terms are “excepted” and “non-excepted”.

        Second, taking any term out of context presents new meanings and challenges. This is especially true when it becomes weaponized like LBA, and many others, has done.

      • KR567 January 24, 2019 at 9:39 pm

        comment …shouldn’t you be on another page complaining about a park bench or something ?

  • Kilroywashere January 24, 2019 at 11:01 am

    Let it roll, let it roll, let it rooooooll, all night long. Jimbo M. With some banks giving non interest loans to laid off govt employees and the fact they ALWAYS get their full backpay, let the proverbial Mexican standoff continue. The 5 billion for wall funding could have been provided by the opportunity cost of the current shutdown. The Democratic party puts American citizens 2nd and behind non US citizens, and this shutdown simply reinforces that point. Keep the border open at all costs is their position. Do not fund border security, even $1. Well, all I can say, LET IT ROLL ROLL ROLL…

    • bikeandfish January 24, 2019 at 12:03 pm

      I thought you cared about facts? Not $1, huh? What about the multiple bills that have passed the Democratic run House that have allocated significant monies for “border security” just without wall funding? Doesn’t seem to support your lie.

      Most Americans disagree with your stance according to most non-partisan polls. More and more Americans blame Trump for this nonsense. As they should given his statement that’d he’d be proud to own it.

      It’s ironic, at best, that you on one claim to care so much about democratic principles and the majority but justify not paying hubdreds of thousands of citizens. And that doesn’t include the ton of contractors who will never get backpay. Its almost like your concerns for the majority are empty rhetoric. Its almost like you care more about getting your way politically at any cost and without regard to the actual systems in place. But that’s just an educated guess from the statements you’ve made here.

      • Kilroywashere January 24, 2019 at 6:44 pm

        Illegal immigrants and non citizens first! That’s your motto B(ack)&F(orth). Oh so much concern for government contractors , Waah waah. Its YOUR PARTY B&F , and you can CRY if you want too, own it. You support illegal immigration, I support legal immigration. You shirk and ignore rule of law unless it is convenient, I support rule of law regardless. Oh gee I guess I lied, Democrats truly support border security according to your historical details. Do a poll.on that one, LOL. Let it roll

        • bikeandfish January 24, 2019 at 7:34 pm

          Not my job to find evidence to support your claims. Nor am I democrat. I’m unaffiliated and vote across party lines.

          Why the outlandish and completely unsubstantiated allegations? Which by the way just support my conclusion further that you actually do care about facts.

          I’ll add one caveat, I’ve already admitted my error in previously saying “walls don’t work”. I admitted its about a cost-benefit analysis that needs to include intangibles before deciding how many more miles of wall we should construct. But you have shown you don’t actually care to engage in any sort of good faith analysis of opposing views.

          Feel free to show me I’m wrong. You can start by citing evidence that I “shirk and ignore the rule of law”. Should be easy to provide direct quotes (with hyperlinks) for such a confident claim


          • bikeandfish January 24, 2019 at 8:38 pm

            Oops, *don’t care

    • iceplant January 24, 2019 at 12:26 pm

      How ironic that you choose to quote Jim Morrison lyrics.
      Someone who was well known as a hardcore liberal and far-left anti-authoritarian.
      Are you being ironic on purpose or just wingin’ it? LOL

      • Kilroywashere January 24, 2019 at 6:56 pm

        Oh yeah, Jim Morrison loved Irony. Best thing I did in Paris was go to his grave, have a few shots, and get chased out of the cemetery by security after staying a half hour over closing time partying with some Dutch hippies during a torrential rainstorm. Otherwise not a fan of Paris except for museums – it’s a chick city…
        Certainly Jim Morrison would think Dems & Repubs as the same thing. He definitely was libertine, but more or less he would be categorized as an anarchist -specifically more along the line of the YIPPIES.

    • Comment January 24, 2019 at 12:51 pm

      yup, kw, after we get that wall up we’ll need to get a full roundup going. Every last illegal needs to go.

      • Redbud January 24, 2019 at 3:31 pm

        I like your thinking! Round em up and drain the swamp!

      • Kilroywashere January 24, 2019 at 7:03 pm

        Nah, let’s just get rid of the felons, rapists and drug dealers, etc… Add to that also the terrorists as well. We got Pakistanis Malaysians, Indonesians, etc flying into Mexico now to cross the Southern border. In B&F’s world all of China and Africa are welcome too. His solution is to talk about it. Border fences to him are so silly. They dont work at ALL. They just do nothing because Rachel Maddow says so.

        • bikeandfish January 24, 2019 at 7:27 pm

          Now you are just outright lie and fabricate BS, huh? You are starting to expose how intellectually lazy you are if that is now your strategy. You starting with deflecting to ad hominems instead of dealing with counter arguments. Now you’ve escalated to lies. Interesting approach.

          • Kilroywashere January 24, 2019 at 8:01 pm

            B&F it is all your opinion. What is a lie? Or what is jest? The bottom line is you will go back and forth forever. You will pick at details. But in the end when you are outright wrong, as you were during the MJ proposition exchange, you fail to admit it. You are a predictable NPC. You are never wrong nor admit it. So yeah, I no longer care and have taken the Redbud approach. You can post all you want, but your sesquipedians and encyclopedic comments are an endless liberal diatribe. So yeah, I really dont respect you anymore.

          • Kilroywashere January 24, 2019 at 8:26 pm

            The Russian Dossier is true – remember that one. B&F. Ever hear of Buzzfeed the media outlet that published it. They just laid off 15% of their employees over the last 2 days. Your media source, not mine, and to be honest you often mimic Rachel Maddow, just being honest. Perhaps it is a coincidence. When all the facts come out and there is no Russian collusion, you will still be unconvinced. Then you will switch to obstruction. An NPC is a non player character. A term first expounded in Dungeon & Dragons , original whitebox set of three pamphlets sold back in the 70s by the way. NPCs in video games are specific AI algorithms with predictable behavior. Sorry B&F but you are predictable. Good luck

          • bikeandfish January 24, 2019 at 8:35 pm

            I think you are confused, I never cared about your respect. Its a fools errand to seek that on the internet.

            Sticking to truth is about your own integrity. It has nothing to do with me. Manufacturing BS the way you have ultimately reflects on your own intellectual failures.

            And you never provided a substantiated counter in the MJ exchange. Nothing to concede there. But your claim is duely ironic as I think I’m the only one of the regular commentors here who admits my errors. Duely because when I do that I’m taunted. But like I said, I do that for integrity not outward respect from random strangers.

            The difference between us is I keep it the ideas abd issues at hand as long as the other side engages in good faith dialoug. You resort to ad hominems and unsubstantiated allegations when others don’t randomly forfeit to your whims. Its one of your primary tools. You don’t act in good faith as long as others are. And make no mistake, I am fine with using a similar type of defense when say Redbud persistently reveals a bad faith strategy, though even then I’ll rely heavily on fact.

            What you exhibit is a type of intellectual dishonesty and to be honest an intellectual cowardice. One example would be your use of “NPC” just now. Talk about feeble. You hide it behind a faux beatnik and gonzo rhetoric but its still obvious.

            And I love how anything not Trump is liberal. Another example of BS and intellectual laziness.

            Ironically, the only one who exhibited a craving for external respect is you. I remember a certain outburst last year after you misinterpreted a question.

          • iceplant January 24, 2019 at 8:39 pm

            Sorry, Killjoy. b&f is right.
            Truth hurts. Sometimes it’s like a humiliating kick in the pants.

          • bikeandfish January 24, 2019 at 9:10 pm

            Ah, I would love to see you dig up that quote to support your claim, Kilroy. I think you and I have different recollections of that exchange. Do you work and give me the hyperlink buddy as I think the context and exact quote won’t support your summary.

            Doubling down on BS with regards to Rachel Maddow. Another bad faith strategy, strawmen and red herrings. I’ll give you a hint: I don’t have cable nor do I stream her show.

            Just going to fabricate another unsubstantiated allegation about my view on Russian investigation? You could actually ask my take, that is good faith. I’ll give you a hint though, I think the only fair option to wait until Mueller releases his findings. Ouch. Doesn’t really line up with your lies.

            And I know what an NPC is. Using it as some retort exposes you only have feeble ad hominem and lack substance to your strategy. Its intellectual cowardice and each response you make exposes the depth of that failure. At some point its no better than screaming unicorns, crayons, and nothing burgers like John did. But at least I think he knew he was intellectually dishonest and inept.

          • bikeandfish January 24, 2019 at 9:29 pm


            Here is an example of how you lie, intentionally or unintentionally.

            You just said:

            “The Russian Dossier is true – remember that one. B&F” Clearly trying to misrepresent my original statement here:


            “The Steele dossier is real” and “It actually contains both validated and unvalidated claims.”

            I didn’t remotely claim what you stated. Not only did I not say it was true I openly admitted it had “unvalidated claims” as well as “Does the dossier have anything of value? Doubtful from what has been released (documents) and the lack of indictments from Mueller.” My claim deals in nuance not certainties like you state.

            Funny enough I also summarized my ideas about Mueller and Russia in the same response:

            “Citizens don’t know the full extent of Mueller’s research so we don’t know (A) if there was collusion and (B) if so what scale it was (to your comparison to other country’s influences).”

            That also doesn’t support your conclusion that “When all the facts come out and there is no Russian collusion, you will still be unconvinced”.

            So what happens when you are not only “outright wrong” and choose to double and triple down on your lies and BS? Because that’s not hypothetical, I just showed two examples how its your current behavior.

            (Ironically, when I replied to you in that thread with facts and nuance you were the one that “you fail to admit” you were wrong and then moved the goalpost.)

      • KR567 January 24, 2019 at 9:42 pm

        comments…will mommy take the minivan and let you ride up front like a big boy….while you play round em up cowboy !

  • KR567 January 24, 2019 at 8:16 pm

    LOL !! I’m sure glad NONE of you are in charge

    • iceplant January 24, 2019 at 8:40 pm

      The feeling is mutual.

    • bikeandfish January 24, 2019 at 10:28 pm

      Honestly, I think we should question anyone who wants to be president. What sane person wants that job?

    • Happy Commenter January 25, 2019 at 12:23 pm

      The brainwashing is thorough with these 2. They prove it daily!

  • bikeandfish January 25, 2019 at 12:42 pm

    Over! Just for 3 weeks but that is huge for millions of Americans. Yes, millions. The long term consequences were about to kick in for many people.

  • Kilroywashere January 25, 2019 at 3:26 pm

    Gee B&F. You’re writing Gone with the Wind in the comment section again, did I hit a nerve? Ask me if I read your lengthy diatribe above and comment 3 more times on that. Bottom line the Steele Dossier is a fabrication and no matter how many media sources you quote it is irrelevant. I assume you probably wouldn’t believe by now the Protocols of Zion were a forgery either even though after a century people still refer to them as a source of truth. So keep believing all you want and next time go Tolstoy – War&Peace on the SG comment section if you like. Back&Forth, black&blue , (who knows which is which and who is who?) In the end were only ordinary men. You have to get out and bike and fish more often and leave your cellphone at home. Either that or join the repertoire of SG political columnists. See you on the dark side of the moon, with the Chinese rover.

    • bikeandfish January 25, 2019 at 4:31 pm

      PS….no nerve hit. I just enjoy when people tee up an easy homerun for me. Exposing lies and intellectual dishonesty is a simple pleasure of mine.

      And are you now trying to throw in some sort of completely fabricated smere that I ascribe to some sort of anti-Semitic philosophy? I guess you have a lot lower threshold for any sort of decency than I gave you credit for. Just going to go all ad Nazium, huh? That’s silly for even you. Talk about any lack of honor and honesty.

  • bikeandfish January 25, 2019 at 5:33 pm

    Out of curiosity, moderators, why delete my previously posted comment? What was the threshold for that? I ask as I factually laid out how Kilroy has blatantly lied. On top of that, he just heavily insinuated I believed in anti-Semitic conspiracy theories with absolutely zero evidence. It was an outright fabrication. How is stating that such repeated use of false allegations and lies implicates one as a liar?

    After watching the range of blatant attacks and hideous statements accepted by this site I’m just curious how the use of the edited phrase is unacceptable given what else is published here?

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