Perspectives: Building a wall won’t fix what ails us

Composite image, St. George News

OPINION — I’ll just come right out and say it. A wall isn’t going to fix what ails us.

For all the time and energy being exerted either in favor of or against walling off our southern border, too few people are capable of seeing beyond their partisan blinders. Both sides view the battle over Trump’s promised border wall as a physical representation of their own ideological infallibilty.

Some conservatives claim the wall is a necessary barrier to protect the sovereign integrity of our republic. Meanwhile, their progressive counterparts see it as concrete – or steel – proof that Trump’s most fervent supporters are xenophobic haters at heart.

Migrants heading to America from points south of the border are portrayed as either terrorists, smugglers and future fraudulent voters or they are shown as starry-eyed dreamers in search of a better life.

Both viewpoints may contain certain elements of truth but are hardly representative of the more complex realities surrounding immigration. Both inspire intense emotion yet fail to provide essential context of the bigger picture.

Few people on either side recognize that they are becoming completely fixated on one facet of a much larger problem. Add in a healthy dose of pride-bordering-on-hubris to the mix and they’ll simply continue to shout bumper-sticker slogans at one another until they’re blue in the face.

Those who are placing their faith in the construction of an impenetrable border wall are seeking after a sort of false idol that promises to allay their fears of “invasion” by benefit-seeking foreigners. It’s a form of political snake oil that plays to the emotions of various constituencies while keeping their attention focused on symptoms rather than causes.

Henry David Thoreau is famous for stating, “There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root. …”

In this case, the root of what’s ailing America goes far beyond those who are coming here without jumping through the myriad hoops required to obtain official permission.

To illustrate why this is so, let’s consider for a moment that the wall is built and immigration across our southern border is effectively reduced to whatever central planners in Washington, D.C., are willing to allow.

Will the construction of the wall return our bloated national government to its proper limited form?

Will there still be tens of millions of true blue Americans on our welfare rolls? Will our government continue to plunder productive Americans through excessive taxation in order to redistribute their earnings in the form of political favors?

Will our leaders continue to borrow money they don’t have in order to keep spending at the levels to which they’ve become accustomed? Will they continue to saddle future generations with responsibility for an astronomical debt over which they’ve had no say?

Will this president, and those who will follow him in office, begin to abide by the limitations of his delegated powers or will we see continued imperial behavior – as we have with nearly every president in the past 100 years?

Will the surveillance state continue to build its massive databases of information on each of us without so much as a warrant, probable cause or due process? Will our national security apparatus continue to claim authority to detain suspects indefinitely, to torture them and to kill American citizens without due process as part of a nebulous war on terror?

Will our national policy makers keep entangling our nation in the internal affairs of others nations against their will? Will our drone strikes, covert military operations and interference in the politics of other nations continue unabated?

Will this genuinely make us safer or freer in any way whatsoever?

Will our those who supposedly represent us in D.C. become more accountable or more responsive to the people who elected them? Or will they continue to rule in favor their own interests and those of the moneyed interests who help keep them in power?

Will the building of the wall empower the American people to reclaim their rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Or will we still be expected to show gratitude to politicians who eagerly insinuate themselves into even the most private aspects of our personal lives?

If none of these things, all of which are actively destroying the sovereign integrity of this nation, will change, then how can we claim that this proposed wall is more than a distraction?

As John W. Whitehead of the Rutherford Institute warns:

Anytime you have an entire nation so mesmerized by the antics of the political ruling class that they are oblivious to all else, you’d better beware.

Yes, there are real and sometimes serious problems associated with illegal immigration.

But let’s not pretend that walling ourselves in is the primary solution for what ails us.

Our nation is being scuttled by a political class that is capitalizing on our ignorance. Fixing that disconnect would be a wiser start.

Bryan Hyde is an opinion columnist specializing in current events and liberty viewed through what he calls the lens of common sense. The opinions stated in this article are his own and may not be representative of St. George News.

Email: bryanh@stgnews.com

Twitter: @youcancallmebry

Copyright St. George News, SaintGeorgeUtah.com LLC, 2019, all rights reserved.

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71 Comments

  • Brian January 14, 2019 at 3:51 pm

    You’re right, since the wall won’t fix everything at once, instantly, we should just give up and not secure our borders.

    I’m one of Trumps biggest conservative critics but he’s right on this issue (except he’s only making this stand on 243 miles of wall instead of the entire southern border). The plain fact is walls do work, we do have a security crisis on the southern border, and that flow of illegals does make things worse in this country.

    Of course we have other massive, systemic problems. Yes, we have massive problems in general with our ignorant and apathetic citizens. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t look for working solutions to actual problems. We can and should multitask.

  • Redbud January 14, 2019 at 3:54 pm

    I agree the wall won’t solve illegal immigration, but it will help. I based that opinion not off what politicians had to say, but by what the border patrol says. That walls DO work. With that said, Build That Wall!

  • Comment January 14, 2019 at 4:17 pm

    The idea is that the wall will only be the beginning. We can only hope and dream that mass deportation will follow. If we can get even a wall built it’ll be the most we’ve seen done about the invasion in a very very long time.

    All this talk of national debts and the surveillance state isn’t something regular folks worry about on a day to day basis. The invasion IS something people see and deal with in their everyday lives. It’s hard to ignore that we’ve been invaded and colonized by massive hordes of spanish-speaking illegal foreign nationals.

    The illegals also serve a purpose of fracturing social cohesion within our society and make it easier for elitists to exploit and rule over the entire populous. The only justification we are told for them being here is “they do the jobs Americans won’t do”. Anyone with even a semblance of independent thought can see right thru this hollow agenda-driven nonsense.

    • bikeandfish January 14, 2019 at 6:13 pm

      What do you mean by “mass deportation” given your ahistoric claim that a wall would be the “most we’ve seen done … in a very very long time?”. Was Obama’s deportation of more than 2.5 million people not “mass” enough?

      And how do you recommend the federal government go about these “mass deportations” given our immigration courts are epically backlogged? Do we abandon the legal right of these individuals to a hearing and appeals?

      • Comment January 14, 2019 at 7:49 pm

        Obama didn’t do nearly enough, obviously. Gov’t needs to put together a mass roundup and get rid of them any way possible. If that means suspending their rights to appeals and delays it’s find by me. This circus has gone on long enough. Time to start enforcing laws. I’d like to see citizenship of anchor babies revoked, but that isn’t going to happen. They’ll need to deport a lot of these along with the parents. The anchor babies will maintain their right to return to the US when they are of age. I know all this is wishful thinking. I’m old enough to remember what this country was like before we were swamped with illegals. Sure there were a few, but there were not the multi-million-strong hordes we have today. It was better. Everyone was better off.

        • bikeandfish January 14, 2019 at 8:33 pm

          So you are just willing to abandon the real facts when they are inconvenient to your narrative? That’s a logical conclusion since you keep ignoring and outright trying to deny (comments before challenged) the fact that we’ve deported more illegal immigrants in the last decade than anytime in history.

          And at least you are honest that you believe the government should have the ability to strip individuals, even ones you recognize are citizens, of basic civil liberties. Its abhorant but at least you admit the truth.

          “Time to start enforcing the laws”… clearly just the ones that align with your goal. I mean we all know civil liberties supercede the immigration laws you pick and choose to value. But what are civil liberties in the name of a mob. It’s not like our founders tried to prevent the despotic measures you are advocating or anything. ‘Merica, amarite!

          Anchor babies = citizens, just to clarify

          Lets add “hordes” to this nuanced immigration talk.

          Thanks for laying your illiberal ideas bare for all to see.

          • Comment January 14, 2019 at 10:29 pm

            If the laws had been enforced for the last 35+ years there wouldn’t be this massive problem with illegals that exists today. All of this because of greed motivating the importing of cheap farm labor perhaps?

            But yes, I am very much “illiberal” when it comes to the issue of illegals. The problem has gone on way too long and I’m simply tired of it/them.

            The wall isn’t my first choice to solve the problem, but at least it’s something. 2.5 mil might seem like a lot, but I wish he’d have deported them all. I wonder how many of the 2.5 mil just sneaked right back in…

          • bikeandfish January 15, 2019 at 12:46 am

            Luckily, despite a ton of dysfunction, our Congress still occasionally forms a bulwark against the illiberal fever dreams of citizens and politicians. Its their primary job to do just that and protect our fundamental civil liberties, which are guaranteed to non-citizens as well. Even Anton Scalia stated “it is well established that the Fifth Amendment entitles aliens to due process of law in deportation proceedings.”. Our constitution is based on the inherent liberties of personhood, not just privileges granted to citizens by nation states. (And people claim I’m a liberal, hah).

            Wether or not the wall happens isn’t directly in our hands. But we can expose your statements for the despotic impulse they truly are. “Mass deportations” that are enforced through denial of basic liberties are not constitutional or remotely just.

          • Real Life January 15, 2019 at 6:22 am

            Anchor babies = citizens. Therein lies a HUGE part of the HUGE problem.

          • bikeandfish January 15, 2019 at 9:39 am

            Real Life,

            I know, it is ridiculous that partisans took something as sacrosanct to liberal ideals as birthright citizenship and try to reframe it in such hateful rhetoric. I’m also glad our founders understood the importance of the English common principle of jus soli. Having separated our nation from the reign of royalty they knew the inherent problems of limiting citizenship to bloodline citizenship, ie jus sanguinis.

            I’m glad we both support those historical and ethical underpinnings of our nation.

          • Comment January 15, 2019 at 11:07 am

            b&f I was gonna correct you on your ‘wether’ there, but it turns out that’s actually a word

          • bikeandfish January 15, 2019 at 11:18 am

            Comment,

            Misspelling whether is one of my persistent mistakes. And I had no clue the other spelling had such a definition. I guess that’s where “bellwether” originates. Learn something new everyday.

  • Utahguns January 14, 2019 at 5:14 pm

    Brian,
    You’re partially correct…building a wall won’t cure what ails us, but, what ails us is not a single ailment.
    However, building a wall is imperative.
    The wall is no different than a lock on your door or windows. That’s why there are laws against breaking and entering. If you had no locks then it would be easy for the perps beating a breaking and entering charge.
    To me, entering the U.S. illegally is no different than breaking and entering, yet, democrats like Pelosi and Schumer can’t see the difference.

    There’s a rancher named Jim Chilton who owns a 50,000 acre ranch along the U.S-Mexico border in Arivaca, Ariz. For Chilton, illegal immigration and drug smuggling isn’t just something he hears about on the news. He lives with it every day as smugglers routinely cross the border on his property. Illegals and smugglers have assaulted Chilton and his family four times in the last six years. Now, he never leaves his home unless he’s armed.
    He supports just about anything to stop it, including Trump’s plan to build a wall from one end of the border to the other.
    How would you handle it if it was your ranch??

    • Red2Blue310 January 14, 2019 at 8:38 pm

      This is a guy who should construct his own wall. Its his private property. Construct your own wall. Why ask the US to?

      • Utahguns January 14, 2019 at 9:56 pm

        I consider myself one of the more fortunate ones just like the rancher to have property. Yes I’ve got a wall, with defined propetry boundry fencing and a security gate with a code.
        Complimenting that are two spirited Dobermans and plenty of other security measures that protect my acreage.
        If you ‘re inferring that you can get past these assets with bad intentions you’ll be the food for the dogs and be recipient of my precious metal collections, CU3ZN2 +PB which all of which can be delivered hypersonically by any family member. Perps might want to come in head first but they’ll always leave feet first.
        Trump’s Wall won’t keep legal citizens who are bad people out of your home to do harm; that’s where you step in and take charge.
        It’s the illegals and gang members that want what you got…

        You’ll probably not completely keep legal citizen perps out of your home. But, you can…
        With some effort, mine does.

        Now how about the other Americans who don’t have the above assets, but, who deserve (and rightly so) the ability to defend their home, their families and their country ?

        • iceplant January 15, 2019 at 5:17 am

          Walls, fencing, security gate with code, Dobermans(LOL), guns, etc. etc.
          In one of the safest states in the country.
          You, sir, are one paranoid and fearful American. Wow.

          • Utahguns January 15, 2019 at 8:09 am

            And you are someone (ie: a die hard liberal snowflake) I wouldn’t consider to be a role model for self preservation. In fact you’re probably not mindful at all on what it takes to be a decent guardian. BTW, I also find you very jealous of my surroundings.
            As they say, “It’s better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it”.

          • Happy Commenter January 15, 2019 at 11:57 am

            Nicely said Guns↓ ↓↓↓ !

          • iceplant January 15, 2019 at 12:52 pm

            Jealous? OF YOU? 😀 LOLOL
            What’s to be jealous of? You’re a guardian of your own delusional fantasy world.
            This isn’t some pi**ing contest. I also own firearms. A Browning .22 rifle, Mossberg 930 Tactical, and 9mm Beretta. All of which I use for target work on a regular basis. Why? For sport. I come from a family of law enforcement and military vets. I was trained on that very .22 by an expert marksman. I know a little about guns. My brother-in-law is Vegas SWAT for crying out loud.

            Guys like you are a dime-a-dozen. You talk tough but you surround yourself with walls, security systems, “spirited” Doberman Pinschers which I find very humorous, guns, and your hilarious references to the periodic table of elements by showing us all that you know what brass and lead are. Bra-vo. *golf clap*

            I live in a nice quiet neighborhood under the big shadow of Red Mountain. I do have a wall around my backyard but that was here when I moved in. I have firearms but I don’t get aroused by them. Unless I feel like taking out some clay targets or glass bottles. I don’t have a gate and I don’t need a security code to enter my home. I have a golden retriever that, rather than kill you, would most likely lick your face off and sit on your chest until you played with her or gave her a milk bone.

            You see, I’m not paranoid about where I live. I don’t buy into right-wing fear tactics and propagandist lies. I don’t believe some boogeyman is coming to take me and my family hostage. I don’t live in fear because I don’t need to. I’m smarter than that.

          • Utahguns January 15, 2019 at 1:48 pm

            Oh, and I forgot to mention my six horses, twelve chickens, four goats and two cats that get along well with my Dobies….
            Watch out for those chickens though…they’re skilled in martial egg laying.
            You came across emotionally defensive just because of most likely how/where I live.
            And you own firearms??
            Wouldn’t want to be your neighbor…

          • iceplant January 15, 2019 at 3:29 pm

            And you assume I would like to be yours? I wouldn’t live anywhere near someone who walls themselves in as a way of defense against imaginary problems that don’t exist. You live in America. You don’t live in some third-world country.

        • bikeandfish January 15, 2019 at 11:37 am

          I am noticeably to the right of IcePlant on this one. It seems the rancher has plenty at stake and a valid concern. As I’ve said before, if Congress presented a comprehensive bill about upgrading immigration enforcement and border security we’d be having a different conversation. But they haven’t nor does Trump’s demands deal with the issue systematically and comprehensively.

          Does that make sense? To me that is why the comparisons to previous actions by democrats is flawed. The ones cited are legislative-oriented action where we can actually debate the merits and flaws of a need and ultimately come up with compromises in conference that account for the complexities. That simply doesn’t happen when a president unilaterally demands we build a wall. And in all honesty, as Hyde highlights, that stance is right in the middle of the foundations of conservativism.

          • iceplant January 15, 2019 at 12:55 pm

            That’s fine. I wasn’t making any references to the rancher. Only to Utahguns and his fantasy land.

          • Utahguns January 15, 2019 at 3:05 pm

            Everyone has a fantasy land…
            Some are in their own mind, I pay property taxes on mine.

          • iceplant January 15, 2019 at 3:40 pm

            How do you pay property tax on your mind? Inquiring minds want to know.

        • Red2Blue310 January 15, 2019 at 6:49 pm

          These are people who DONT OWN RANCHES. Build their own walls. Dont use public funds.

  • bikeandfish January 14, 2019 at 6:21 pm

    The escalation of rhetoric regarding pro-Trump immigration policy is reaching a fever pitch. Redbud talks about Trump’s “reign”. Comment seems to believe we need a “mass deportation” bigger than Obama’s unprecedented expulsion of 2.5 million individuals. The “invasion” claims are sticking despite empirical evidence showing quite the opposite. And Comment even amplifies it more with a completely ironic claim of being “colonized” by illegal immigrants that ultimately leads to “the entire populous” being “exploited and ruled over.”

    This is how a tyrant creates imperial power. Not by force but by citizens willfully beating away at the basic constraints on government after releasing just enough fear in campaign rhetoric. Its been happening incrementally for decades, as Hyde highlighted, but the rate of that erosion is growing faster and faster. At some point it undermines the entire foundation of our constitutional republic.

    I don’t often agree with Hyde’s tone or rhetoric but this one is dead on. And as many conservatives are discussing, this abuse of executive power doesn’t end with Trump. It will be applied in new ways and extents that eventually effect the very people justifying it right now. If conservatives think Obamacare was bad then wait until the next democratic ignores Congressional restraints on climate change, prescription drug costs (Warren has a bill for that already), etc. Stopping the momentum behind this type of power grab is just going to get harder.

    • Redbud January 14, 2019 at 7:21 pm

      It is evident that all you’re trying to do is turn the issue with the wall, into something it’s not. Us normal people see the wall as something that simply helps with the undeniable problem with illegal immigration. Forget what the politicians say, the people who actually work at the border have proven repeatedly that walls do in fact help. Unless you become someone with a position of more authority to convince us otherwise, your rhetoric is completely lost in the wind.

      • bikeandfish January 14, 2019 at 8:20 pm

        The wind is the swamp now, correct? Trying to follow your many, confusing explanations of “draining the swamp”.

        And also, its now “normal” “true American” “Americans” that support the wall, correct?

        And just to clarify, if a subset of government workers, specialized in their field, request something than that is enough justification? Can we apply that across the board even when empirical evidence shows the problem the equipment is designed to solve is at historically low and manageable levels?

        Or what happens when experts disagree like in this case? Or what happens when the very data compiled by your favored experts disagrees with their assessments and justifications?

        Abnormal non-Americans want to know how to fall in line with their dear leaders viewpoint.

        • Redbud January 14, 2019 at 9:45 pm

          Sure, I can easily answer your questions.

          – A person’s ability to understand the swamp is commensurate with their level of comprehension. Don’t think about it too hard, don’t want you to hurt yourself.
          -No. You misinterpreted.
          -It’s more justification than you will ever hope to have, since they are experts at what they do (duh?)
          -It depends an who you ask, anyone can give you an answer that isn’t intelligent.
          -This is a non issue and I’ll tell you why: No expert to this date has provided a solution supported by facts to NOT build the wall. So far, we haven’t heard from one single person who qualifies as an “expert” provide a valid disagreement to build the wall. I favor the experts, who so far, have only provided valid evidence based on facts that the wall is effective, and needs to be built.

      • Red2Blue310 January 14, 2019 at 8:42 pm

        The repugnicans had their chance when they held full control of congress for 2 years. Whats their … when its their own fault. It doesnt make sense to now blame anyone or anything else for not having things go their way.
        Ed. ellipsis

  • bikeandfish January 14, 2019 at 6:59 pm

    Hyde made a subtle point when he asked “Or will they continue to rule in favor their own interests?”

    I think Trump’s own words answer that:

    “They’re going to want something from me someday, very important, because I have to sign everything. Everything has to go through the White House.”

    “”They’re going to want something from us for one of their favorite little deals. And all of a sudden, they’re going to find out it’s going to be very, very tough for them.”

    His alleged “Art of the Deal” was never to benefit the citizens of this country.

    • Redbud January 15, 2019 at 4:30 pm

      You tried to troll me, but you failed because your reply didn’t make any sense. It’s already been proven, so myself and other Americans already have enough proof that walls work. I am not against other technology, but it needs to be used in combination with the wall. Your reply also proved my point that you again misinterpret and falsify my words and ideas, and really do not understand the swamp. You got Trumped again!

  • Kilroywashere January 14, 2019 at 7:37 pm

    Yes, there is no doubt a wall will work in deterring illegal immigration. Yes establishing a secure border will be a stepping stone to comprehensive immigration reform. Yes building a wall will deter drug smuggling which is a bigger issue then we are lead to believe. Yes building a wall will save lives on both sides of the border. LETS ADD THAT FOR 3 DECADES MONEY HAS BEEN ALLOCATED TO BUILDING AN EFFECTIVE WALL ON THE SOUTHERN BORDER BY BOTH Democryps & Republoods with little to show. Will it fix major issues as pointed out by Bryan, probably not, but it will help and is a good step in the right direction. Well over 50% of Americans want an effective wall built. Let’s get it done. That is a majority, and this is a democracy. We, the taxpaying Americans should be respected. It is common sense. Simple as that. Let’s make immigration a legal and fair process. Yes it can be done.

    • Red2Blue310 January 14, 2019 at 8:44 pm

      And we CAN AFFORD UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE. No until the dems get what we want!

    • bikeandfish January 14, 2019 at 8:46 pm

      Fact check #1: “Well over 50% of Americans want an effective wall built.”

      False. Support has climbed but still by a noticeable minority. 42% support while 54% are against.

      https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/support-for-trumps-wall-reaches-all-time-high-poll

      Fact Check #2: “That is a majority, and this is a democracy”

      False. See above. More importantly, we aren’t a democracy. We are representative democracy with a bicameral Congress. Your claim is ironic given most people voted against Trump. He won because of the electoral elements that balance out the traditional democratic vote, ie electoral college vs simple majority.

      “We, the taxpaying Americans should be respected”

      I agree with respect from our representatives but “we the taxpaying Americans” don’t agree on your other conclusions. We disagree with on wether its common sense to expend the resources or wether its in line with our nation’s values.
      It’s not as simple as you state. Its quite complex.

  • utahdiablo January 14, 2019 at 9:17 pm

    Well, the USA has another 15,000 Caravan of useless … coming right now from Honduras, but not to worry correct? as most if not all will be released all around the USA to “wait for their day in court” which of course they will never show up for and will just continue to drop even more Anchor babies to drain the taxpayers monies and overcrowd our schools until the Nation falls….BullS Build the damn wall….keep these Invaders out
    Ed. ellipsis

  • ladybugavenger January 14, 2019 at 9:44 pm

    No one ever includes me in their polls and until they do, I will continue to not regard them as fact

    • iceplant January 15, 2019 at 5:38 am

      You will continue to live with your head in the sand.

    • Happy Commenter January 15, 2019 at 8:10 am

      Just remember that toddler typing tantrums are nothing but entertainment for the educated.

  • Kilroywashere January 14, 2019 at 10:11 pm

    Gee B&F , just googled. CBS news 2018 from June poll shows 51% of Americans support building a wall. Oh and we are not a Democracy? Really. Oh, we’re a representative Democracy. Oh my, you win B&F. Back&Forth. Lets just inviite the entire world to come to America and do so illegally. That is your stance. You promote incentivizing it. You want to pick at details
    In your theoretical idealistic paradigm and think it matters go ahead, but in the end commonsense is not a game of rhetoric. And you are full of rhetoric with no connection to reality. Honestly, how many times have you crossed the Southern border? I worked in Mexico. How many times have you been to Central America? Im in double digits. Waste of time. You live in an ivory white tower. Blah blah blah. No solutions. Just rhetoric.

    • bikeandfish January 14, 2019 at 11:58 pm

      Yep, one poll from last summer. Most non-partisan polls have shown a minority consistently supports the wall.

      If you are calling the structural basis of our constitution and government simply “theoretical idealistic paradigm” or having “no connection to reality” than you are misguided. Our federal government structure was designed to explicitly impede the “tyranny of the majority”. Its in the governments DNA.

      The rest of your response is completely void of relevance (including the second ad hominem attack) and fallacy after fallacy.

  • commonsense January 14, 2019 at 10:14 pm

    The wall will define our southern border and allow America to work on amnesty for those illegals who are here. It won’t be a panacea but it will be a starting point to lessen the tremendous cost of illegal immigration, drug trafficking and access by criminals. The few entry points can then be points of intense scrutiny. Combine border security with e-verification of elapsed visas and we begin to address the security and needs of American citizens. Educating, providing health care and welfare to non-citizens is overwhelming our resources.

  • Kilroywashere January 14, 2019 at 10:18 pm

    By the way 6/17 posts, your over 33% again B&F. Word count probably broaching the articles word count. Keep up the posts. Emerson Laje & Palmer. “Roadhog, roadhog, roadhog, come see the show – welcome back my friends to the show that never ends”

    • Utahguns January 15, 2019 at 8:17 am

      “21st Century Schizoid Man.” …..Emerson, Lake and Palmer, Epitaph Album 1969
      The song acts as a kind of prophecy, predicting that men of the 21st century will all grow schizoid because of how conflicts like the corruption of government destroy the innocence of entire generations.

      • iceplant January 15, 2019 at 1:05 pm

        21st Century Schizoid Man is KING CRIMSON. ELP adopted it after Lake left the band. 😛

    • Happy Commenter January 15, 2019 at 8:20 am

      HAhaha! but so true!

    • Real Life January 15, 2019 at 10:13 am

      B&F loves nothing more than the sound of his own voice. Just ask him, he will tell you. Then he will present all kinds of “facts” to back his own claim.

      • bikeandfish January 15, 2019 at 11:26 am

        I love that we live in a time when using facts is controversial. Granted, it only seems to be the case for internet trolls who can’t provide any other evidence based argument other than that strategy and ad hominem attacks.

    • Comment January 15, 2019 at 11:18 am

      B&F is in love with illegals but I’m not sure why.

      • bikeandfish January 15, 2019 at 12:27 pm

        Another lie. Show me where I said I love “illegals”. Should be easy since you keep repeating it.

        And if you can’t cite where I said that (you can’t) then have some integrity and retract your baseless allegation like you mentioned you would just the other day.

        • Real Life January 15, 2019 at 1:55 pm

          B&F he says that because you vehemently argue for the millions of illegal immigrants here, and on their way. Times have changed man, this is not the Ellis Island that our great grandparents made their way through. A huge part of what is sneaking through is young males who bring crime and narcotics that flood our streets. It’s time to quell this. The media always finds a photo op with some mother and her 8 kids, but that’s not what is mostly coming.

          • bikeandfish January 15, 2019 at 2:55 pm

            No, what he presents is a false dichotomy of we either have to “love ’em” or “hate ’em”. The world is more complex than that.

            You as well have made a false allegation. I don’t “vehemently argue for for the millions of illegal immigrants here.”. Its a strawman. Arguing against the President’s demands and for a comprehensive legislation is not remotely the same as you claim. Highlighting the despotic and unconstitutional measures Comment advocates isn’t remotely the same as you claim.

            What you are saying about illegal immigrants using the southern border was exactly what nationalists said during earlier waves of immigration from Europe (ie Ellis Island reference), before many of them were considered “white”:

            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Italianism

            Crime, rapists, uneducated, poor, drugs…..none of these allegations are new. Its the same garbage gift-wrapped for a different group of “others”. And its almost always hand delivered at a moment citizens are feeling uncertain economically.

            Except this time we have decades of evidence and data disproving the tyrannical claims of a “crisis” and “invasion” used to justify such reactionary demands.

          • Comment January 15, 2019 at 4:16 pm

            b&f trying to slither and wriggle out of what should be a simple response. b&f sounding like a politician. Either you like illegals and want them to stay OR you want them gone. Which is it? Myself, I want every single one of them gone gone gone.

          • bikeandfish January 15, 2019 at 5:23 pm

            Comment,

            Logic and reality deny the basis of your false dichotomy. The situation is not an either or predicament.

            https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/94/False-Dilemma

            I’ve provided a third option, one of many beyond the two you provide, many times in the past. If you interacted with others in good faith you wouldn’t try to force them to choose between your two fallacious options. But acting in good faith also eliminates the use of false allegations like you have used.

          • Comment January 15, 2019 at 6:57 pm

            LOL b&F, you’re like a fish wriggling around on a hook trying to escape. wriggle wriggle wriggle! LOL. These illegals are here illegally. That’s why they’re called illegals! haha. So should they stay or should they go? You make it a lot harder than it needs to be. This is why I feel like you love illegals.

        • Comment January 15, 2019 at 2:11 pm

          I’ll make it a real simple question: Do you want to get rid of the illegals or not?

          • bikeandfish January 15, 2019 at 2:57 pm

            Nice try, comment. Either support your allegations with citations to my own words (in context with a hyperlink) or retract like you said you would. Its not my job to prove your false allegations wrong.

          • Comment January 15, 2019 at 4:12 pm

            Answer the question, bike! A simple yes or no! ahahahah 😉

          • bikeandfish January 15, 2019 at 5:17 pm

            When you make allegations against your job to support them. Plain and simple. I have no responsibility to answer your question so you can try to weasel yourself out of the hole you dug. It was just days ago you said you’d recant if you made false claims. Gonna live up to your own standard?

          • Comment January 15, 2019 at 6:50 pm

            LOL, I believe you love illegal aliens. As said above “you vehemently argue for the millions of illegal immigrants here, and on their way.” I believe that statement to be totally true.

          • bikeandfish January 15, 2019 at 8:34 pm

            Ugh, that’s not my quote. Were you being ironic or even less honest?

            You’ve had plenty of time to either support your claim or recant At this point its fair to conclude you don’t mind fabricating lies about others.

            And the only thing your persistent demands expose are you own logical and ethical errors.

          • Comment January 16, 2019 at 8:36 pm

            ahahahha, b&F, you just can’t bring yourself to answer the question. You’re the one being dishonest by refusing to answer. It’s real snaky slippery of you. Either you like illegals or you don’t. Either you want them here or you don’t. It really is that simple. LOL

  • bikeandfish January 15, 2019 at 1:33 pm

    Oops, looks like the “expert” opinion justifying the wall radically changed in the middle of the shutdown. Up until January 4th, the union website said “the NBPC disagrees with wasting taxpayer money on building fences and walls along the border as a means of curtailing illegal entries into the United States.” Judd has spent years as the unions lead with no record of making demands for the wall until suddenly in the spotlight with Trump.

    Looks like Trump may be filling the swamp and filling with more creatures.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/01/trump-nbpc/580237/

    Its also more interesting given the sudden change in the networth and financing strategy of the union. Looks like we might see more investigative journalism on this subject in the weeks to come.

    http://www.atlanticbb.net/news/read/category/business/article/the_associated_press-no_winners_in_a_govt_shutdown_you_havent_met_brand-ap

    I wonder what the next barrage of failed justifications for this unilateral demand for billions of dollars will entail.

    • Redbud January 15, 2019 at 8:08 pm

      Congratulations Bike, you just cherry-picked articles to support your anti-american views. We support Trump and the wall. Trump 2020!

      • bikeandfish January 15, 2019 at 8:28 pm

        You don’t understand what cherrypick means.

  • KR567 January 16, 2019 at 5:54 pm

    I got some new socks today ..

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