On the EDge: Utah’s embarrassing gender gap

OPINION — If you are a woman who wants to bake casseroles, get married at a young age and start producing babies, then Utah’s the place for you.

However, if you want to earn a serious, post-graduate degree and become a professional woman with a well-paying career, well, it might be a good idea to move to Hawaii or New York, the top two states for gender equality.

A recent survey of the gender gap conducted by WalletHub, an economic and financial analysis company, ranked Utah as dead last.

The numbers are good and in no way can be thought of as tilting the scales. The organization studied data obtained from the U.S. Census Bureau, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, the National Women’s Law Center, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the National Center for Educational Statistics and the Center for American Women and Politics.

The study was put together in advance of Women’s Equality Day, which is Wednesday, and it illustrates just how out of touch Utah is with the rest of the nation. The results are based on three factors: workplace environment, education and political empowerment. Surprisingly, Utah’s highest ranking came in the area of political empowerment, where the state ranks 36th. The state’s educational ranking and workplace environment rankings anchor Utah to the bottom of the gender gap listings.

The educational ranking was based on the number of women earning college degrees and test results of women in the 25 to 64 age group.

The workplace environment number took into account salaries, the number of female executives in the workplace, average hours worked per week among full-time staff, number of minimum-wage workers, the unemployment rate and entrepreneurship in the state. Utah dipped tremendously in this category across the board but particularly in the wage gap, which shows women here earning only 70 percent of what men doing the same work earn. This is predictable in a state that is highly patriarchal, but nonetheless unconscionable.

The political clout was based on numbers of women in the elected positions at the municipal, state and federal levels.

Some of this disparity, of course, is a result of corporate America’s longstanding disparity in wages between men and women. Some is a result of the nation’s longstanding misogynistic political attitudes. You can see a pattern emerge by studying the bottom of the WalletHub list, which is mostly comprised of conservative, Republican states.

Most of this, however, is culturally self-induced.

The average Utah woman is married at 24, three years younger than the national average, then goes out and immediately starts raising children and, as a result, the state has the highest birthrate in the nation. Although a lot of lip service is given to education, less than 50 percent of the women who enroll in a Utah college or university graduate, and only 8 percent of Utah women between the ages of 25 and 64 have earned a master’s, doctoral or professional degree. That’s a full third less than the national number, according to a study published in The Economist magazine.

For years, the joke was that the only reason Utah girls attended college was to find a husband.

The joke, however, seems to be on us as numbers reflect there is more truth to that line than humor,, and the sting of the state’s educational numbers for women make it no laughing matter.

There is also the religion factor.

Three years ago the rules changed, allowing younger men and women to go on missions for the LDS church. This further imperils education in the Beehive State where the choice between salvation and schooling will boil down to a matter of dollars and cents for many. Previous to the change in missionary age requirements, young men would have about two years between high school graduation and going on a mission, while the young women had about four years. Some elected education to fill the gap.

Now, the numbers among young men remain about the same, while the number of young women who left college to go on missions, or neglect enrolling altogether, has grown.

Whether these young women return to school when they complete their missions remains to be seen.

The fact is, this is a bit more complex than a simple change in the rules of when a young man or woman can become a missionary.

It relates to how women are viewed in general, and this includes how they are raised and, more importantly, how they view themselves.

If they are raised to believe their only function is to marry and reproduce, tend a house and grow into a blissed-out soccer mom, there will be little incentive to pursue a college degree, which lessens us all.

Look, being a mom and housewife is hard work, it is honorable, but it does not mean a woman should forego her education or ignore her dreams and allow them to go unfulfilled.

We also don’t need to perpetuate the continuance of the chronically dependent woman who isn’t strong enough, educated enough or is too reliant to make it on her own.

We need to change the role models for these young women from the glitzy showbiz celebrities to the hardworking women who have broken through that glass ceiling and achieved success in business, education, medicine and so many other fields.

We need to build their self-esteem and let them understand that there is nothing wrong with putting off marriage and family until they are ready and not to give in to the pressures of a culture that propels them into responsibilities that rob them of their youth.

And, we need to drop the attitudes that have kept women in an inferior position when it comes to jobs, salaries, career decisions.

In other words, we need to offer some real equality.

Ed Kociela is an opinion columnist. The opinions stated in this article are his and not representative of St. George News.

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Email: edkociela.mx@gmail.com

Twitter: @EdKociela |  @STGnews

Copyright St. George News, SaintGeorgeUtah.com LLC, 2015, all rights reserved.

 

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111 Comments

  • Real Life August 25, 2015 at 8:16 am

    Get married in basically a prepared marriage, at a way too early point in life, pump out 5 kids, obey your husband, and don’t question the “system”. Wake up one day and realize you hate your spouse, and your life sucks. Do nothing about it, because divorce is taboo, and end up abusing antidepressants. That’s what I see in Utah.

    • Brian August 25, 2015 at 10:41 am

      What planet do you live on? “basically a prepared marriage”? Other than on a polygamous compound (which has nothing to do with the average Utahn) there is exactly zero of that going on. “way too early point in life”? The average marriage age of Mormon’s is 24, only 3 years less than the national average of 27. Some get married in their teens by going AGAINST the teachings of the LDS Church, but frankly, that happens more in other cultures (including US inner-cities) and doesn’t involve marriage, involving much worse consequences for society. Your comment is absolute drivel.

      • sagemoon August 25, 2015 at 12:07 pm

        Mormon girls are coached to prepare for a temple wedding, marry a returned missionary, and dedicate their lives to their church. How is that not a prepared wedding? It’s not the same as an arranged marriage, but the expectations of who a woman will pick as a spouse are high.

        • fun bag August 25, 2015 at 12:56 pm

          If you don’t pay to Jesus the 10% then you don’t get to visit him up on planet Kolob. Pay the 10% or be damned to eternal hellfire! …amen

        • Brian August 25, 2015 at 1:02 pm

          Yes, and Mormon boys are ~taught~ to prepare for a Temple wedding, serve a missionary, and dedicate their lives to their Lord. It’s called discipleship, and it’s not based on gender, it’s based on the Bible (and in our case additional scripture, such as the Book of Mormon). It’s not unusual or abnormal, the vast majority of the population of the planet throughout history have belonged to a religion and followed its tenets to varying degrees. Mormons happen to be quite happy, successful, inventive, hard-working, well-adjusted people. Peculiar (1 Peter 2:9)? Yes. The way you picture us? Not even close.

          • sagemoon August 25, 2015 at 2:29 pm

            Just as I thought. You are incapable of seeing this issue through a woman’s eyes.

          • fun bag August 25, 2015 at 3:11 pm

            “Mormons happen to be quite happy, successful, inventive, hard-working, well-adjusted people.”

            From my experience they just put on a show at church–the whole happy happy happy thing. In reality they are no happier collectively than anyone else. You’re generalizing about the group. Thing I find irritating with mormonism is “your blessed” if all is going well in life, but if things not in your control start to go badly (health, money, deaths in family, etc) then that person must have angered god. they are told to pay more tithe, go to church more try to become more worthy. Its hypocrisy of the worst kind. So when things are going good for you it’s all god doing that, but when things suck, well, that’s all the members fault. Just one thing to dislike about the cult religion…

          • Simone August 25, 2015 at 4:52 pm

            Brian please allow me to retort, I was Mormon an left the church because, well, enough proof was given for me to realize that the Mormon church is less a church and more a large cult. For the record, I am not a member of any religion. When I was 25 or 26 and questioning the church but still very much involved I attended a stake conference at the Mormon Institute of Religion on the DSU campus (Yes there in good ole Saint George). At some point, the wife of the Stake President took the stage, announced her role to the masses and proceeded to tell everyone in the room (a group of 100+ women and girls aged 17-25ish) that it was a womans duty to marry a faithful LDS man and have as many kids as possible. She said that women who did those things had a much higher chance of getting into the “Celestial Kingdom” (Heaven) after they died.

      • Real Life August 25, 2015 at 12:25 pm

        The girl is prepared by her upbringing to marry young, and have as many kids as possible. FACT is Utah has the highest birth rate, and one of the highest prescription abuse rates in the country.

        • Brian August 25, 2015 at 3:23 pm

          Mormon’s don’t teach their kids to “marry young”, male or female. We DO teach them to make marriage a priority. Many in the US put marriage off until after they’ve done all college, sowed their wild oats, made their millions, etc. We think marriage and family are more important than career / business, higher education, sports, etc, and yes, our teachings reflect that (unapologetically), in both the average Mormon home, and at church. We also think children are the greatest source of joy, and our greatest work, both in this life and the next. Again, you’ll find almost zero Mormon’s apologizing for that, and certainly not me. That tends to lead to an increase in family size, by choice, but there isn’t any pressure to have “as many kids as possible”. Guam and American Samoa have the highest birth rates, but Utah is the highest state. No surprise, or shame, there. Utah ranks 8th for drug overdose mortality, but our rate is staying level or going down, while many on the list have doubled, tripled, or even quadrupled in the last 10 years (http://healthyamericans.org/reports/drugabuse2013/release.php?stateid=UT). Definitely too high, but its not like there is direct correlation to Mormon’s.

          • fun bag August 25, 2015 at 6:01 pm

            “its not like there is direct correlation to Mormon’s.”

            actually there is. both illegal drugs and psychiatric drugs. Mormonism creates a lot of misery in a lot of people’s lives. there’s no denying it…

    • Dexter August 25, 2015 at 12:47 pm

      Proving my point again do yourself a favor and shut up stupid

      • AnotherReader August 25, 2015 at 5:41 pm

        In your own, unpunctuated way, Dexter, you’ve proven yourself the uneducated, blundering fool again. Thanks for the laugh.

        • 42214 August 25, 2015 at 6:42 pm

          Just cause you were cum laude at BYU you don’t have to be so condescending to Dexter.

          • Real Life August 25, 2015 at 9:15 pm

            Don’t stick up for stupid.

          • Dexter August 26, 2015 at 9:35 am

            Ha Ha Ha. I got them both to respond

        • Dexter August 26, 2015 at 9:00 pm

          Thanks. For the laugh with your usual stupid and useless school yard commentary. Maybe you and MESAMAN and REAL LIFE should just hang out on the monkey bars where you three belong. and ABBEY can come by with her pooper scooper and clean up after you 3 idiots.

          • Real Life August 26, 2015 at 10:15 pm

            Sssssshhhhhh. Be quiet stupid.

      • abby August 25, 2015 at 11:06 pm

        Of all the bashers on here, you are by far the worst dexter. You just spout off with no substance whatsoever. You truly are a sad case. God bless your soul.

        • Dexter August 26, 2015 at 9:33 am

          Of all the bashers here you are the worst one ABBEY you should be ashamed of your self. God bless your soul….

          • AnotherReader August 26, 2015 at 9:33 pm

            Wittle Dexy’s got his knickers in a twist. Wah wah wah.

  • Brian August 25, 2015 at 8:21 am

    Ed, it’s clear you view all Mormon’s as if they live in Hilldale, but the reality is we’re a happy, vibrant, successful people, and that includes the women. I regularly sit in church meetings with women serving in a variety of callings, and they’re amazing! They come from a wide variety of backgrounds (school teachers, business owners, professionals, and yes, stay-at-home Mom’s). None of them strike me as uneducated, uninformed, unsuccessful, or held-back. Just the opposite! The ones that are stay-at-home Mom’s are there because they choose to be. It’s a hard choice that involves many sacrifices, but they are sacrifices that they choose (them, not their husbands, and not their church leaders). Are the statistics accurate? Yes, they are, but they don’t mean Utah is an unsuccessful, backwards state. It means we’re living our chosen lifestyle. Isn’t that EXACTLY what you fight so hard for for gays? Why doesn’t that apply to Mormon’s as well? Frankly, it’s because you’re just as intolerant and bigoted as you accuse everyone else of, just to a different group of people, so you don’t see it. Come sit in our meetings, get to know our amazing women, and I’m betting you’ll be just as impressed with them as I am.

    • sagemoon August 25, 2015 at 9:53 am

      No one, man or woman, should have to “sacrifice” to live to their true potential and fulfillment. Brian, you need to take a look at this issue from a woman’s perspective. I was raised in the LDS church. I am no longer Mormon for many, many reasons. One of the minor reasons is because I have no place in the LDS church. I dedicated my life to education, chose not to have children, and I compete against men in the workplace. My husband is my equal and not my “priesthood holder.” I don’t make casseroles or bake cookies, I don’t do crafts, and I enjoy wearing tank tops in the sweltering summer heat. I do resent that men who are less qualified have been promoted over me. I resent that the people promoting those men belong to the same church and talk about church related topics at work. I am a bread winner and I am just as good as any man. I am my own “priest” and wear the title of “uppity woman” with pride.

    • fun bag August 25, 2015 at 10:22 am

      I’ve sat thru lots of hours of mormon meetings in my day. Think I’d rather watch paint dry–probably more stimulating. Hey Brian, do you guys have the opportunity in any meetings to sit around and talk about how everything is obama’s fault?

    • fun bag August 25, 2015 at 10:25 am

      Perhaps it would also be a good time to swap ideas about where to hide the guns?..

    • BIG GUY August 25, 2015 at 11:27 am

      Well said, Brian. Mormons are almost the only distinct minority left in the country that is bashed with impunity, especially by those who defend almost all other minorities as victims. This board is a perfect example and Ed’s defense of other minorities (women, gays, blacks, Hispanics, etc.) rings hollow.

      • fun bag August 25, 2015 at 11:54 am

        LOL BG, you’re such an idiot. They may be bashed and made fun of but there is absolutely no discrimination against them. The kooky beliefs of mormons may be made fun of but they are always tolerated. TRUMP FOR PRES 2016!!!

    • Dexter August 26, 2015 at 9:03 pm

      Brian I can’t believe you even have the ability to make a living. LOL.!

  • sagemoon August 25, 2015 at 8:54 am

    Ed, you have no idea how every word you wrote speaks to me. You have spoken a truth that many will not want to hear. Are you sure I didn’t tell you every thing you needed to know for this article? : )

  • NotSoFast August 25, 2015 at 9:11 am

    Sounds like a typical Barry Sanders commercial Ed. Good job!
    Can we expect a Bruce Jenner sponsored beauty pageant plug next?

  • ladybugavenger August 25, 2015 at 12:43 pm

    Sounds like we have some people who were Mormon then weren’t….as for me, I was raised in California, heard of Mormon in high school but thought OK, whatever that is…then I moved to Utah in 1993, ended up in Richfield where I was cometely lost. I was silently searching for God, because God says if you search for me you will find me….so with some of my ex’s family we went to a temple ( salt lake, I think) and heck ya, I’m searching g for god, let me check it out and BAM! I’m not allowed in and that’s how I know that was not God. Because I was searching, came as I am, and I was denied entrance…..and that’s why I will never be Mormon or belong to a Mormon Church. God would not deny me, but the Mormon Church did cuz I wasn’t worthy….shame shame shame or sham sham sham

    • Brian August 25, 2015 at 1:24 pm

      I’m sorry you feel that way. You’re welcome into any of our 30,000 churches, 300+ visitors centers, dozens of family history libraries, to buy bulk foods at cost at hundreds of bishops storehouses. We’ll also usually be the first to show up with truckloads of food if you’re in a natural disaster (often times before anyone else, including government agencies and the Red Cross). But being ticked that you can’t just stroll into one of our Temples isn’t reasonable. I’m sure they graciously pointed out the dozen other places you could go on Temple Square and have a spiritual experience, or learn about why Temples are sacred and not just anyone is allowed in. For the record, you would have had the exact same experience in Jesus’ day if you had tried to enter that Temple. It’s not unlike going to Disneyland and being ticked off that they won’t let you go into Walt’s secret basketball court in the Matterhorn or his private bedroom above Main Street. It’s very, very common for many organizations to have places that are open to the public, and other places that are not. Not recognizing that is pretty childish. As for your search for God, I hope you found what you were looking for. If not, I would encourage you to continue, wherever you choose to look.

      • 42214 August 25, 2015 at 4:06 pm

        Brian, comparing the Temple to Disneyland was a very appropriate comparison or a slip of the tonque. Bottom line, gotta pay to get into either.

      • Simone August 25, 2015 at 4:28 pm

        ” For the record, you would have had the exact same experience in Jesus’ day if you had tried to enter that Temple”. For the record, that is wrong. For proof I refer you to John 8:1-11 in which the following exchange takes place:

        1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

        2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

        3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

        4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

        5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

        6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

        7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

        8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

        9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

        10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

        11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

        As you can clearly see sir, not only did Jesus not deny her entry to the temple, he actually welcomed her with open arms and forgave her of her sins. 🙂

        • Brian August 25, 2015 at 6:27 pm

          Simone, that was the outer part of the temple, where anyone could go, but not where sacred rites were performed. The outer court was a very public place, but still sacred (as evidenced by Jesus driving out the money changers). The inner court, or Court of the Priest’s is where the alter was and where sacred rites were performed. It excluded all laymen, and only the priests were allowed in.

          • Simone August 25, 2015 at 10:17 pm

            Ok then show me the passage or passages in the Bible that back up your statement.

          • Brian August 26, 2015 at 7:47 am

            The Bible is just a collection of letters and journals (essentially) of the early apostles. They didn’t include blueprints of the temple, but there are lots of historical documents that backup my assertion, including quite detailed measurements of the temple and its courts. You can start here: http://www.bible-history.com/jewishtemple/JEWISH_TEMPLEThe_Court_of_the_Priests.htm But there is plenty more out there, if you’re interested.

        • ladybugavenger August 25, 2015 at 10:45 pm

          Amen

      • ladybugavenger August 25, 2015 at 5:34 pm

        No thanks Brian, Jesus is not in a building hes in the hearts of men and women ( not all, I might add) your religion is just a religion and religion can’t save anyone. However, I thank the Mormon Church for showing me that was the wrong door to open. You can’t work your way or buy your way to heaven and that’s what your religion teaches. I’m not worthy for your temple but that does not mean I’m not worthy. Jesus is the truth the life and the way. Not the Mormon $$$$ Church

    • fun bag August 25, 2015 at 1:25 pm

      LBA, in mormon culture worthiness = $$$$$$$$$$. Got to pay the toll

    • 42214 August 25, 2015 at 1:45 pm

      Very good point Ladybug. How do Mormon supporters explain or justify your experience being denied or shut out.

  • Dexter August 25, 2015 at 12:51 pm

    TRUMP FOR PRESIDENT.!

  • Brian August 25, 2015 at 1:09 pm

    For the record, the IS a group, both around the world AND in the US, that IS being subjected to exactly the type of repression that Ed and others here accuse Mormons of: Muslim women. They get punished if they read, are forced (not choose) to wear burkas in most cases, can’t drive, can’t go to school (this varies around the world), are actually treated as inferior, are allowed to be raped and can’t complain without 4 male witnesses willing to testify on their behalf, are frequently physically mutilated, and if they go against their husbands or fathers are beaten and even killed (Google honor killings), even in the United States. Where’s the article on that, Ed? Where’s the outrage, from ANYONE on the left? I hear it on the right, but we’re just accused of being hateful and bigoted. Ed, if you have an honest, intellectually consistent bone in your body next weeks article will be all about Muslim women being repressed, beaten, and murdered around the world.

    • fun bag August 25, 2015 at 3:03 pm

      no one likes muslims, and the whole IS thing is obama’s fault anyways

    • NotSoFast August 25, 2015 at 3:54 pm

      Brian,
      Ed is in the writing business for comments. Not news worthy honest topics. duh.
      (i.e. so many comments equals Good ‘that a boy’s’ from the publisher.) Doing a piece on Muslim women being repressed/ honor killing, etc., might get 2-4 comments?
      Folks can’t relate to what might be happening in Iran or even Detroit, Michigan. They can’t throw stones that far.

    • 42214 August 25, 2015 at 4:07 pm

      I thought we were discussing Utah?

      • Dexter August 26, 2015 at 9:39 am

        Discussing Utah.? Did somebody say toilet.?

  • fun bag August 25, 2015 at 3:20 pm

    Oh another thing that sucks: if you don’t pay the full 10% then you never get to enter the holy buildings and get ‘endowed’ or whatever it’s called, and if you don’t do that you only get to enter the lower levels of heaven (not the celestial), and the lower levels of the mormon heaven are basically the equivalent of hell, so you could be the kindest most generous person ever, but if you didn’t pay the LDS corporation “their” 10% during your life then you’re going straight down to eternal hell.. fun fun…

  • Ladyk August 25, 2015 at 5:45 pm

    Ed once again I am severely disappointed in your article. Your lack of understanding is so obvious you need to title this a biased piece with no factual basis at all . Brian has done a good job of voicing the truth that you fail to see. First of all you fail to understand that the most important workplace is in the home. Many women choose to stay at home and raise their children because we understand that nothing is more important than the well being of our family. Are some women on medication to help them, sure but if you compare that to other states where a mother will put her kids to bed (or before) then down a bottle of wine or other alcohol beverage to help her relax or smoke deadly cigarettes to deal with her stress I think you would find more drink/smoke as a way to cope than those that take prescribed medication.
    So let me go back to the beginning. I was raised in the church. I went on a mission, not because I was raised to because trust me the topic of ME going on a mission NEVER came up. I returned home and got a job. My intent was to go back and finish school but I needed money to do it. So off to work I went. A few months later I found myself with a unique opportunity to start my own business so I did. I had that business which employed not only other family members but many other people from within my hometown. I continued my business for more than 10 years. During this time I met and married the love of my life. We were both 30 when we married after 1 year of dating. We didn’t live together first for 5 or so years as is commonplace in other states which alters another of your statistics and shows your comparison of marriage age is not done with good faith. At 35 we found ourselves expecting our first child and I decided that the opportunity of being a mother to my son was more important than anything else. We as a culture feel that if you are going to have kids then the priority should be that you raise your kids, not some worker at a daycare. After the birth of our second child (a girl ) my husband was holding her and said “Men may build the foundations of man but women build the foundations to God”. If your priorities are that of man then that is your choice. I don’t fault any woman for making that a priority but for you to criticize a state where we clearly make family a priority is disingenuous at best. Trust me, I am not subservient to my husband. We have a wonderful partnership and marriage. I can truly say that I don’t know any women in the church who feel they are subservient. We have our responsibilities in the church and I have no desire for the Priesthood I have all I can handle trust me. I love that God told men to be the leader of the family. Notice I said leader and not owner. I know couples in the church who have problems, non of us are perfect. We strive to do our best but non of us are perfect.

    As for education. You state that the girls who go to school do so only to find a husband. I suppose that you could be right but I think your view is very short sidded. I know a lot of people who do not work in the same field where they received their education/degree. I know a lot of people who never received a college degree but still make a wonderful living. My husband never finished his degree. He served in the military then when he got out he began a career in the IT field. He makes more than any other man in our neighborhood and we live in a very nice area. He is one of only a few in the country to do what he does. No one in my family works in the field of their degree except my sister who is a teacher. But all of my family live very well. A degree doesn’t always equate to success or money.

    Then let’s consider the fact that since many women in the US are getting married later in life and since couples are having less children than they use to or none at all. The average age of women getting married in the US use to be 18-24, the rate of our population has gotten to such a point that we can barely maintain itself. If this trend continues to a point where the population growth is less that 2.1 children then we as a country will never recover. This trend is not just in the US but world wide. Then you take in consideration the rate of which people who are LGBT are not reproducing you will continue to see decline in our growth. So go ahead and gripe all you want about all the amazing women who have chosen to dedicate themselves to their children, family and community but soon there will be fewer people to listen or read your garbled lies. So until you have been a women who has grown up in the church, gone on a mission ( BTW your time frames are wrong) had a successful career then chose to dedicate herself to her children and family don’t you dare tell me how you think I should feel. You are unequiped to give advice or opinion on this matter. To those women who’s experience has been unlike mine and decided to leave the church so you could “wear a tank top” then that is your choice. No one is forcing you to believe what we do. But don’t get on your soap box and say we are the bigots or that we don’t know how to love one another when you take great pride in trying to prove to others that we are weird or wrong in the choices that we make. Go live your own life and do what you want to do. We are not stopping you by believing what we do. If you don’t want to be bothered by living the way God told us to live then don’t, you have free agency as do we. But who are you to sit in judgement of how many kids we have or how old we are when we get married. Knowing what I know now. I would have given anything to have had my kids in my 20’s. Not only for their benefit but for mine. But I guess I had some growing up to do. I had to grow up enough to be able to put others first before my own ambitions and desires. I had to grow up enough to understand what God truly was going to ask of me. You can choose to not believe and your choices are yours. Stop the bashing and do something that actually contributes to society.

    • fun bag August 25, 2015 at 6:07 pm

      omg! is this your life story or what? Whatever works for you i guess, and to each his own…and have a pleasant journey to Planet Kolob 🙂

      • mesaman August 25, 2015 at 7:09 pm

        Thus speaketh the local Mormon hater; too stupid to leave and too eager to use whining as his remedy.

        • 42214 August 25, 2015 at 8:22 pm

          Oedipus, how’s the treatment going? Good to hear from you.

          • mesaman August 25, 2015 at 10:14 pm

            You are a liar. You never want to hear from me because I don’t like you and I don’t like what you stand for, so cram it.

          • Dexter August 26, 2015 at 8:22 am

            Ha Ha the old guy got mad. LOL.!!!

          • fun bag August 26, 2015 at 10:50 am

            I actually feel sorry for mesaman. He’s just an elderly man desperately trying to remain relevant in the modern world. I just wish his replies had more substance (you would expect from a professor), Instead all we get is 10yrs old’s playground insults…

          • mesaman August 26, 2015 at 11:48 am

            42 and one half percent pure. No, dunce, he got even.

          • fun bag August 26, 2015 at 12:41 pm

            Nolan, what are you on about now? All OK?

          • 42214 August 26, 2015 at 1:38 pm

            Sorry Nolan.

          • Dexter August 26, 2015 at 6:53 pm

            Maybe he ran out of Geritol. and his SS check is late

    • sagemoon August 25, 2015 at 8:55 pm

      That is really cool that you got a chance to live life and do so many things others haven’t before they settle down in a marriage and have children. I do admire the LDS philosophy of Family First. I admire my sister-in-law who has happily dedicated her life to her husband and 5 kids. She was made to be a mother! I think we are all getting away from the point Ed was trying to make: women in Utah earn far less than men. His opinion is that is caused by cultural factors that include the values of the LDS church. In my experience, I have to agree with him. Good wives and mothers are needed in this world but for a woman in my situation, I feel the sting of discrimination every day. I lack support from many of my female community members. It’s not just about being able to wear tank tops ; )

  • Ladyk August 25, 2015 at 6:49 pm

    I will, hope to see you there.

    • 42214 August 25, 2015 at 8:27 pm

      You really believe in a planet Kolob? Jonestown makes more sense but then, I guess both places offer kool-aid to whoever wants to drink it.

      • Dexter August 26, 2015 at 8:15 am

        Oh yeah they drink plenty of koolaid here. LOL.!!!!

  • NotSoFast August 25, 2015 at 9:21 pm

    I wonder how many of the blow hearts thus far, will be out on Main street with their protect signs ‘BLACK LIVES MATTERS’- MORMONS NOT’ and demanding free admission to the local Mormon temple? Followed by ‘Where’s my Free Cell Phone?
    (I wonder what Forrest Gump would add to this conservation)?

  • Dexter August 25, 2015 at 10:44 pm

    People like REAL LIFE know nothing about nothing. they just see what they want to see.

  • beentheredonethat August 25, 2015 at 10:59 pm

    I have yet to meet an honest Mormon. In years to come , it may be politacally incorreet to use the “M” word. Not unlike the “N” word. And speaking of the future, when the LDS are phased out, won’t those temples, wards, stakehouses or whatever they’re called make nice low income apartments?

    • Dexter August 26, 2015 at 8:27 am

      There is no such thing as a honest Mormon just look at the arrest records.. D U I. and smoking cigarettes and drug arrests and tax evasion and welfare fraud… and more

      • Brian August 26, 2015 at 8:42 am

        What ridiculous, bigoted blanket statements! What sad trolls you are.

        • Dexter August 26, 2015 at 9:22 am

          What a ridiculous bigoted sad troll you are

          • Real Life August 26, 2015 at 3:44 pm

            You are one pathetic loser.

        • Dexter August 26, 2015 at 6:57 pm

          REAL LIFE. Yes you are a loser… I totally agree with your pathetic comment. but there is always hope for you. God help your soul

    • fun bag August 26, 2015 at 10:58 am

      BEENTHERE, I haven’t been able to figure out if the lying, scamming and lack of integrity in this state is a utah thing or a mormon thing, bc i haven’t met enough mormons outside of utah to make a conclusion. any thoughts?… In my business I have always used the trust-but-verify policy when i suspect i might be transacting with mormons, because honestly, they have tried to scam me or been dishonest so many times… i suspect it may be a cultural thing…

  • abby August 25, 2015 at 11:07 pm

    There are a lot of lost souls posting on this article. Most of the women here are doing just fine thank you.

    • Dexter August 26, 2015 at 9:26 am

      LOL. You said it.. Most of the women here are doing just fine.. and you ain’t one of them. LOL.! HA HA HA HA.

  • aviatormh August 26, 2015 at 1:08 am

    It’s beyond me why people are so distrot over what mormans believe. It’s thier belief not yours so why are you angry? They have a right to thier beliefs don’t they? You say it affects every thing in Utah and it bothers you? Then move somewhere you like the culture but don’t try and deny them the right to live the way they want. I don’t care for the culture in Vegas so I don’t live there and I cerntenly wouldn’t move there knowing the way it is and constantly complain about it as if everyone there should change the way they live so that It was what I wanted. Bottom line is your demeaning someone for thier beliefs while at the same time preaching your own. Let it go, you’ll feel better

    • fun bag August 26, 2015 at 11:01 am

      “IF YOU DON’T LIKE IT THEN LEAVE!!!” the is the mormon’s favorite thing to say to the “gentiles” and “apostates”…

      • mesaman August 26, 2015 at 11:52 am

        My advice, follow the “favorite thing to say to “. . . .apostates, and ignorant bloviators. I’ll chip in to buy your bus ticket.

        • fun bag August 26, 2015 at 12:42 pm

          Nolan, we’re looking for insightful commentary, not playground insults. Come on! You can do this!

        • 42214 August 26, 2015 at 1:41 pm

          I only fly first class Nolan and you couldn’t afford the ticket.

          • Dexter August 26, 2015 at 7:03 pm

            I don’t think his SS check could cover the cost of a plane ticket and a bag of peanuts much less his bag of depends

        • Chris August 26, 2015 at 3:40 pm

          Gee, Ashman, why is that you are only capable of issuing insults on this forum? You complain about others’ whining, but whining is all you ever do here. Is your life so pathetic that the only attitudes you have are negative? Get a grip, Nolan.

  • ladybugavenger August 26, 2015 at 1:26 pm

    Will someone please clear this up for me ( I get conflicting answers, perhaps Brian might know the answer) do Mormons think that they are the one ones going to heaven?

    • 42214 August 26, 2015 at 1:52 pm

      I’ll answer that. The problem with most, if not all organized religions is they think they are the only ones going to heaven or a divine after life. Muslims, Mormons, evangelical Christians, on and on. It seems the justification for one belief is they are right and you are wrong. Born agains claim you can’t go to heaven if you’re not saved, even if you’ve never heard of Jesus Christ. On and on. All religions are based on a principal of we are the righteous and if you’re not one of us you’re wrong. Wars are fouight over this. People die over this. Tell me I’m over generalizing or being too simplistic. Then show me two “organized” religions that admit one faith is a more righteous faith than the other. Show me a Mormon that admits Islam is better. A Catholic that says Judiasm is better. A southern Baptist that says Episcopalian better. The whole purpose is self-anoited righteousness at another’s expense.

      • sagemoon August 26, 2015 at 2:37 pm

        That is a good answer.

  • 42214 August 26, 2015 at 3:20 pm

    Brian, is there a recognized religious faith whose faithful followers will not enjoy an eternal after life as perceived by the Mormons? Is there only one “heaven” or after life? Is there only one God that created the after life. Do muslims go to their own heaven, Mormons go to theirs and so on. If there is only one God and one heaven, then there are billions of people on this planet wasting time practicing their religion.
    You’ve got Muslims with religious beards. Catholics with all kinds of symbolic rites and rituals of communion, baptism etc. Mormons wear special underware, sharia law, orthodox Jews, what a religious mess this planet is in. So tell us Brian. Each member of a different faith lives an exemplary life of worship, goodness, kindness, wholesomness. Do they each go to their own heaven or is there just one and if you picked the wrong religion to practice you’re just out of luck? How does that work?

    • fun bag August 26, 2015 at 5:25 pm

      All that matters is that you pay to the LDS corporation the 10% which is owed

    • 42214 August 26, 2015 at 6:03 pm

      How about LadyK, Mesaman, Anotherreader or anyone else? Help Brian out here.

      • AnotherReader August 27, 2015 at 6:01 pm

        42214, you don’t really want an answer now do you. You want what you believe to be fodder to keep this string going. In reality Mormons believe that through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all of God’s children will be resurrected. That means all. This is the gift we have all been granted. After the resurrection we will all stand before the Lord to be judged according to our hearts and actions. As such, each of us will receive an eternal dwelling place in a specific kingdom of glory. These differences are what Jesus referenced when he taught, “In my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2). The glory we ultimately inherit will depend on the depth of our individual conversion, as expressed by our obedience to the Lord’s commandments. Don’t believe it? You are not forced to. Do I believe it? That is my choice. Have a good afternoon.

  • ladybugavenger August 26, 2015 at 4:15 pm

    It’s all very cult…. watch out for any church that requires a membership. ( you know the membership cards they want you to fill out). Red flag warning: one should be able to go to church freely without a membership. Walk away from membership churches! You get a membership at a gym not a church.

  • fun bag August 26, 2015 at 5:26 pm

    have some more KOLOB KOOLAID, lol

  • 42214 August 26, 2015 at 8:18 pm

    Ask a serious question and they run like cockroaches when the lights are turned on. How about you Aviatormh, anybody want to chime in about only Mormons going to heaven.

    • aviatormh August 27, 2015 at 2:17 pm

      It’s not that only mormans will go to heaven there are different degrees of heaven but if you want to live were god lives then you must have made the covenants required to live there. Mormans are the only religion that provide you with a way to make thoes covenants. Two doctors can have excacrly the same knowledge but only the doctor with the right certifacts can practice Medicean. Not because he has the “true” knowledge but because he had the certificates. Luckily for you mormans can provide you with that even after your dead but it’s still up to you weather or not you accept them.

      • ladybugavenger August 27, 2015 at 3:24 pm

        I read all the way to” Mormans are the only religion that provide you with a way to make those covenants” and I almost threw up……cuz You have no mention of Jesus….Jesus is the way not being Mormon. For a church that has Jesus in its name you sure stay clear of the teachings of Jesus. You comlare mormons to doctors, you compare a man to a man, one sinner to another sinner…you compare 2 men like i compare a piece of steak from one cow to another, some steaks are better than others. Covenant, as in witch craft?then you have your wards, as in mental ward?

        • 42214 August 27, 2015 at 4:34 pm

          I knew I would smoke out at least one loon with that question. Aviatormh, you are priceless. Different degrees of heaven? Mormans? Was this a joke or do you really believe what you said. OR, is this Dexter assuming another personality?

          • fun bag August 27, 2015 at 4:54 pm

            the different degrees of heaven aint no joke. If you don’t pay the 10% you get stuck in the crappier “ghetto” heaven… Jesus never visits that one…

      • fun bag August 27, 2015 at 4:19 pm

        I’d like to hear an answer that doesn’t come from what seems like a halfwit. It’s MORMONS not MORMANS… FYI

        • aviatormh August 27, 2015 at 6:17 pm

          Haha I am well aware that I can’t spell but thanks for pointing it out and yes I absoluley believe what I said. How many religions believe you must be baptized? It’s a baptismal covenant. And who do you believe we are makeing covenants with? I’m find myself wondering what teachings of Christ that Mormons stay away from? Be specific or else you can’t teach me why I’m wrong. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe I’m compleatly insane but I still have not had my original question answered. Why is what I believe such a problem for YOU. Some religions worship the cow. Some worship cats. Some believe that their prophet will rise out of a well and save the world. But you don’t think they are crazy just Mormons. Interisting.

          • ladybugavenger August 27, 2015 at 10:07 pm

            I’m not insane, that’s why I’m trying to help you….it does matter what a person believes, that’s the point! You can not say you have not heard the good news, Jesus saves! John 3:16…for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him shall not parish but have everlasting life.

          • fun bag August 28, 2015 at 11:44 am

            It doesn’t bother us that mormons believe all that goofy stuff. What bothers us is that most of them are total hypocrites. If you can’t live the religion you preach on and on about then why bother? Mormons always seem to have some sort of agenda. Oh, and I expect a mormon to be able to spell MORMON. Hopefully you made it passed the fifth grade?…

          • aviatormh August 28, 2015 at 12:15 pm

            Wow fun bag it must be exhausting being you. What we believe bothers you, the fact that only the mormon religion has hypocrites or as we would call them “human” and the fakt dat I caint spel so good actually ceeps you up at knight. When do you find time to polish your halio?

  • Dexter August 26, 2015 at 9:06 pm

    HOWARD STERN FOR VICE PRESIDENT

  • 42214 August 27, 2015 at 8:12 am

    Ed, Ladybug asked a great question, do Mormons think they’re the only ones going to heaven. I posted my views and challenged the usual suspects (Brian, Anotherreader, LadyK, Mesaman etc) to respond. As usual, they cut and ran from the question. This would be a good topic for a future column.

    • AnotherReader August 27, 2015 at 9:05 pm

      Responded to you earlier, no cutting and running here, No Mormons do not believe they are the only ones going to Heaven. So to repost, here you go: 42214, you don’t really want an answer now do you. You want what you believe to be fodder to keep this string going. In reality Mormons believe that through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all of God’s children will be resurrected. That means all. This is the gift we have all been granted. After the resurrection we will all stand before the Lord to be judged according to our hearts and actions. As such, each of us will receive an eternal dwelling place in a specific kingdom of glory. These differences are what Jesus referenced when he taught, “In my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2). The glory we ultimately inherit will depend on the depth of our individual conversion, as expressed by our obedience to the Lord’s commandments. Don’t believe it? You are not forced to. Do I believe it? That is my choice. Have a good afternoon.

    • Brian August 28, 2015 at 10:39 am

      No, Mormon’s don’t think they’re the only ones going to heaven, at all. That’s a lie and propaganda from those who oppose the LDS Church. We believe God is literally our Father in Heaven, and that He loves all of His children equally. His greatest hope is that all of them will return to Him. Earth was created as a proving ground for us to learn to be more like Him. Everyone is born into different circumstances and has different experiences here. Everyone is judged on the choices they make, based on the knowledge and experience they had at the time. Only Jesus Christ can make that judgement. However, He has commanded that everyone must be baptized. Some churches teach that a person that dies before being baptized is doomed, including a newborn baby. We believe baptism is required for everyone who ever lived, so we do massive amounts of genealogy and perform proxy baptisms in our Temples (see 1 Corinthians 15:29). These baptisms aren’t binding in anyway, until the person who has died chooses to accept or reject it (based on being taught the gospel in the afterlife, see 1 Peter 3:19). I can’t think of a more fair approach to meet the needs of all of God’s children (regardless of choice or lack of religion), throughout history. It’s a huge effort and will take the full 1,000 years of the Millennium to straighten it all out, but its important to do everything we can now, which I think we do a good job of. In the end, every one of us will stand before Jesus Christ and be judged according to our hearts and our deeds (thank goodness for the Atonement and repentance). No one will be judged in ignorance, because whether in this life or the next everyone will be taught the gospel of Jesus Christ and will either accept Him or reject Him knowingly.

      • fun bag August 28, 2015 at 11:41 am

        Sounds to me, Brian, like the mormons are the only ones going to heaven. I guess you either got to choose to be a mormon in this life or choose to be a mormon after you’re dead, but nonetheless, if you don’t choose to be mormon then Jesus casts you down to hell. I bet the LDS corporation feels bad that they can’t get the 10% “which is owed” out of dead people…

  • 42214 August 27, 2015 at 11:51 pm

    So a Mormon, Jew, Muslim, Catholic, Buddhist and agnostic get resurrected and judged. Do they get equal housing in heaven? What does depth of conversion mean? What conversion do the non Mormons have to do to get a nice mansion. Why does a Buddhist have to convert and to what? Your explanation is riddled with contradictions and double talk.

    • aviatormh August 28, 2015 at 5:09 am

      42214 I’m honestly interested in hearing what you believe

      • fun bag August 28, 2015 at 12:37 pm

        well, if he’s not a worthy mormon he must be a devil worshiping atheist, right?

      • 42214 August 28, 2015 at 1:03 pm

        Fundamentally I think all organized religions offer one primary goal. That is everlasting life in heaven if you are a faithful follower. The problem is each religion thinks they are the only true path and they’re all competing for membership support. They all want money or some form of material support and make it sinful not to do so. I could go on but I basically believe in an ethical code of conduct of right and wrong. Similar to the 10 commandments without the God part. I believe you can be moral without being religious. Show me a faith that doesn’t tell me how to live my life and want my money and we’ll talk.

        • 42214 August 28, 2015 at 1:46 pm

          Before you infer or assume I’m greedy because I don’t want a church that wants my money, I gave 16% of my income last year to Wounded Warriors, Shriners’ Hospital, and the American Cancer Society.

  • fun bag August 28, 2015 at 12:35 pm

    another interesting observation: a lot of once hardcore mormons that have left the LDS cult actually have such a shift in thinking that they go from being hard-right-wing republicans to democrats and ‘liberals’ (ooooh! scary, right?!)

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