St George News

ON Kilter: Bundy’s victim mentality costs him grazing rights

OPINION – Unless you simply do not pay attention to local news at all, you are well aware that there is a standoff between a local rancher with his sympathizers, and the federal government. The BLM is currently acting to confiscate cattle that Cliven Bundy has had grazing in northeastern Nevada for years, the last 20 years without paying grazing permit fees. The BLM, supported by U.S. District Court orders, maintains the cattle constitute trespass on government-owned public land.  Read St. George News initial report on the range war here.

Even Bundy’s most ardent supporters seem to be conceding the fact that he is going to lose and from all that I am able to ascertain, they are right.

But here is the rub that may surprise some people: I have been trying to find a way, some way, that Cliven Bundy could win this battle – some legal loophole, some place where the federal government went wrong in a way that can be concretely combatted in real court, not the court of public saber rattling. I cannot find anything.

Permit me an analogy?

I get out into the backcountry a bit. It goes without saying that some preparedness is a requisite routine for this activity especially here in the desert where the literal landscape can kill you. I have, at least on a few occasions, pushed my luck.

One such occasion was a hike on Red Mountain. A friend and I ascended the plateau from the Kayenta area intending only to climb and descend the same route. But the view and the exhilaration of the climb led us to traversing the mountain to descend the route just above Ivins. We had started in the cool of a July morning but by the time we got across, the full noontime sun was doing what it does and I was out of water. So was my friend.

Those who know that route know it is just that. A route, not a marked or even clear trail. The terrain is steep, loose, and laden with multiple random drop-offs of more than 40 feet. The route intends for ascent or descent to be achieved by navigating between these drops and, on this day, we missed our mark several times leaving us to backtracking up the steep terrain to try again.

I distinctly remember telling my friend after asking him if his bottle was dry like mine: “Our next decision has to be the right one dude, we are in trouble.”

It was. We made it. Thank you to the not-home resident of Ivins for the use of your front faucet by the way.

The point I am making here is that looking back now on that day, as with many similar and more serious outdoor experiences gone wrong, I can pinpoint the moment I went wrong. Deciding to extend that day under the conditions present with the limited water on hand was it, we had no business proceeding without adequate water.

And so it is in the case of Cliven Bundy.

The day he decided to stop paying his grazing allotment fees required by law, (not imaginary law mind you, but real law passed by Congress and enforced by federal agency) he rendered his voice and any control he had over the destiny and use of the land irrelevant.

But worse than that, I think, is the horrific counsel he must have received from friends he must have had who, like now, did him no service whatsoever pontificating to the point of absurdity with value-laden language that, while it ratchets up the emotional sentiment of some people, sways courts or federal agencies not one bit.

In fact, it makes those courts and agencies nervous – and not in any way that is good for Cliven Bundy or anyone like him.

The Bureau of Land Management may have taken a long time to finally getting around to enforcing court orders, and I do question that.

But while the saber rattlers loosely assert this to be victory of sorts, interpreting it to mean Cliven Bundy is beating them, the fact is Bundy has not won at all. Rather, he has simply gotten away with free grazing while the BLM was derelict in its duties.

One would do well to question why that is. Perhaps they were threatened? Or paid? It would not be the first time such corruption impeded the progress of things in favor of one influence or another.

In the end, all the emotionally charged drivel will fail Cliven Bundy and his supporters. And as much as I sympathize with them on some level, if law carries any weight, it should fail them.

It is said that the definition of insanity is to repeat a process over and over and expect a different result.

In this case, for the community who lays proud claim to settling much of this region that repetitive process is the perpetuation of a state mindset of victimhood. Continually, the response to opposition to anything they do ranging from marriages to multiple wives, to founding of state militias, to blatant discrimination of entire classes of people, is shrouded in a persecution complex. A complex whereby it is completely out of the question to themselves that they were not operating within the confines of law but that somehow the law was unfairly changed against their favor to single them out.

And sadly, the only place that this dwarfed and sophomoric thinking is upheld is here. It will fail in federal court and it will fail in the eyes of intelligent people one and all because it simply lacks merit.

See you out there.

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Dallas Hyland is an opinion columnist. The opinions stated in this article are his and not representative of St. George News.

Email: dhyland@stgnews.com

Twitter: @dallashyland

Copyright St. George News, StGeorgeUtah.com Inc., 2014, all rights reserved.

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  145 Comments
  1. Mesquite-Oh April 5, 2014 at 8:55 am · Reply

    Finally a rational article about this man who is costing me, the taxpayer, millions of dollars. First for the money he has not paid to let his cattle roam and second for the money he is costing me, the taxpayer, to have the BLM collect his cows!

    • David Williams April 7, 2014 at 3:08 pm · Reply

      he isn’t costing you ANYTHING. however, your support of this fascist machine is costing him EVERYTHING!

    • highlatte April 7, 2014 at 7:04 pm · Reply

      The BLM and Federal Government is costing all of us billions. The BLM has done nothing to the maintain this land (oh, and much more) and sides with environmental groups, costing mucho bucks. btw federal property does not belong to some ‘group’ or ‘senators, congress’ or any other government rep; the land belongs to the people. Bundy is not costing you a penny by using this land that has been put to productive use by his family for decades.

    • Aaron April 13, 2014 at 7:53 am · Reply

      The BLM is using the grazing fees to manage him out of business. Why would you pay someone to put you out of business? They reclassify the the land as non grazing because they claim they are protecting the desert tortious then proceed to euthanize 800 of them… Yeah, here BLM, take my money!

  2. Ed Kociela April 5, 2014 at 9:06 am · Reply

    Very good piece, Dallas. The problem is that there is such anti-fed sentiment here that it will fall upon deaf ears. Never mind that the man was virtually stealing from the public by not paying grazing fees, it’s those darned feds to be blamed again for some imagined wrong. Hatred of the federal government in these parts, however, is something that dates back more than 100 years and, like most long-standing feuds, those who perpetuate it have no reason why.

    • GPM April 5, 2014 at 3:35 pm · Reply

      Well said!

    • David Williams April 7, 2014 at 3:08 pm · Reply

      where do you people come from? is there some sort of socialist/fascist camp or are you all just being imported from NYC, CHicago, SF, and LA????

      • Lex April 9, 2014 at 11:28 am · Reply

        Being born and raised in the NYC area I agree with you. We’re just one bullet away from a civil war. These statist and academic sychophants are way too controlling, and are engaged in a wealth redistrobution to feed their minions. This eventually will give rise to another pol-pot figure and no one will shed a tear for them as their cruelty and oppression cheering will be their undoing.

      • Jody April 9, 2014 at 6:49 pm · Reply

        This is a post from his daughter:

        Here’s a statement made by the daughter of Cliven Bundy! It will help you get what’s going on!
        At least it should!
        ” Words from Shiree Bundy Cox:
        I have had people ask me to explain my dad’s stance on this BLM fight. Here it is in as simple of terms as I can explain it. There is so much to it, but here it s in a nut shell. My great grandpa bought the rights to the Bunkerville allotment back in 1887 around there. Then he sold them to my grandpa who then turned them over to my dad in 1972. These men bought and paid for their rights to the range and also built waters, fences and roads to assure the servival of their cattle, all with their own money, not with tax dollars. These rights to the land use is called preemptive rights. Some where down the line, to keep the cows from over grazing, came the bureau of land management. They were supposed to assist the ranchers in the management of their ranges while the ranchers paid a yearly allotment which was to be use to pay the BLM wages and to help with repaires and improvements of the ranches. My dad did pay his grazing fees for years to the BLM until they were no longer using his fees to help him and to improve. Instead they began using these money’s against the ranchers. They bought all the rest of the ranchers in the area out with they’re own grazing fees. When they offered to buy my dad out for a penence he said no thanks and then fired them because they weren’t doing their job. He quit paying the BLM but, tried giving his grazing fees to the county, which they turned down. So my dad just went on running his ranch and making his own improvements with his own equipment and his own money, not taxes. In essence the BLM was managing my dad out of business. Well when buying him out didn’t work, they used the indangered species card. You’ve already heard about the desert tortis. Well that didn’t work either, so then began the threats and the court orders, which my dad has proven to be unlawful for all these years. Now their desperate. It’s come down to buying the brand inspector off and threatening the County Sheriff. Everything their doing at this point is illegal and totally against the constitution of the United States of America. Now you may be saying,” how sad, but what does this have to do with me?” Well, I’ll tell you. They will get rid of Cliven Bundy, the last man standing on the Bunkerville allotment and then they will close all the roads so no one can ever go on it again. Next, it’s Utah’s turn. Mark my words, Utah is next.
        Then there’s the issue of the cattle that are at this moment being stolen. See even if dad hasn’t paid them, those cattle do belong to him. Regardless where they are they are my fathers property. His herd has been part of that range for over a hundred years, long before the BLM even exsisted. Now the Feds think they can just come in and remove them and sell them without a legal brand inspection or without my dad’s signature on it. They think they can take them over two boarders, which is illegal, ask any trucker. Then they plan to take them to the Richfeild Aucion and sell them. All with our tax money. They have paid off the contract cowboys and the auction owner as well as the Nevada brand inspector with our tax dollars. See how slick they are?
        Well, this is it in a nut shell. Thanks”

        Excuse the grammar, I just copied and pasted.

        • Pheo April 11, 2014 at 12:44 pm · Reply

          It’s all interesting and I can empathize, but ultimately, our elected representatives passed laws and judges upheld the interpretation of those laws. While those laws and judgments might not have been completely fair to all parties, what is the alternative? All we are left with is the rule of law and the Bundy’s are on the other side of it.

    • anon hard working american April 8, 2014 at 1:34 pm · Reply

      respectfully, regardless of grazing rights, you and the author should be upset over those darn feds for these things
      1 Free speech zones? we don’t live in a communist state-all of our country is a free speech zone and regardless of whats happening it is ilieagle to arrest people for not standing in a boxed area on public land. The supreme court upheld video recording of all law enforcement regardless of any state or city law is allowed
      2 Snipers? really? no call for armed force of that magnitude for this situation and keeping people of public land?
      3 Blm says they are broke and cannot protect the endangered species but they can spend a million tax payers dollars trucks,trailers sniper teams ?on this?
      in the end those darned feds are stomping on the constitution and freedom of speech, and look to be picking a fight. that is the reason why.
      This could have been handled much differently than this way .
      you seam to be missing the big point that affect you directly.
      that is why the anti fed sentiment you talk about and do some research on whats happening now in this country , you may just understand some day

      • Mark April 13, 2014 at 8:44 pm · Reply

        So twenty years of going to Court is not enough for you, Really, come on………….

    • blueshift April 10, 2014 at 1:34 pm · Reply

      he offered to pay grazing rights to clark county not BLM, BLM refused that notion. This guy who wrote this article knows 5% of the situation at best.

      • Tom Lowe April 11, 2014 at 11:31 pm · Reply

        Well, since he likes to make up his own rules, I’m disappointed that he didn’t offer to pay his grazing rights to me!

        • Ben April 16, 2014 at 2:25 pm · Reply

          He has a grazing license that the gubmint refuses to recognze.

    • ShockedInKansas April 12, 2014 at 12:40 am · Reply

      With all do respect, you do not understand what is going on with Bundy and other ranchers. The BLM is a predator and has taken many a ranchers grazing rights using process and junk studies and erroneous demands. (See 50 mile Mt., etc, etc, etc, etc.) The BLM was well in to its efforts to take Mr. Bundys range away before he stopped funding the very people that was to protect his right to his face while conspiring with wack job enviro’s to stab him in the back and take his rights without even paying him for his losses. The BLM would not have taken his fee’s even if he wanted to pay them to them instead of the county. Wake up to the whole story and stop hiding behind processes designed to make the bad look good and the good bad!

  3. Cc April 5, 2014 at 9:21 am · Reply

    Finally someone who is real about this. It’s not his property he did not pay is rent and went told to remove his property he chose not to so his property is no longer his and they can and will do what they want with it. This is no different than with any other renter a storage unti, apartment or office building don’t pay your rent and don’t remove your property you will loose it. What makes him feel he is above every other renter?

    • Ben April 16, 2014 at 2:32 pm · Reply

      He paid and paid until they told him he couldn’t use the land he has a license to graze his cattle there that the governemnt refuses to honor. He has payed in sweat and now he may end up paying with blood. Is that enough payment for you?

      There is now such thing as public property there is private property and government property. “His property is no longer his” you mean his roads and his fences and his reservoirs and sheds and barns and corrals and livestock. It is an unjust out of control government that is at fault not Bundy.

  4. MerrHell April 5, 2014 at 9:26 am · Reply

    The BLM has no business being within a 100 miles of the Bundys. There is nothing out there. The Tortoise is NOT native to the area… they were hauled in from the Mohave as pets 150 years ago. This is just an over reaching government with a few BLM employees trying to create there own little fiefdom. Just like the State made Snow Canyon State park a less desirable place than before when they walled it off and started charging entrants a fee. They claimed it was to protect the resource… and now it sucks money from the taxpayer at a rate 10 times what it did before and you can’t even recognize the sand dunes because the weeds have grown over. Government will never be the solution on the Arizona strip or anywhere on “public lands in the west. Government is THE problem

    • Kc Coleman April 5, 2014 at 10:44 pm · Reply

      Ummmm…The Bundy family was hauled in about that time as well. He is not native.

      • N TO April 7, 2014 at 8:04 am · Reply

        KC Coleman, I tip my hat to you good sir.

      • David Williams April 7, 2014 at 3:05 pm · Reply

        he was there long before the BLM came into existence, bad sir.

        • Tom Lowe April 11, 2014 at 11:40 pm · Reply

          He was there long after the federal government came into existence, dumb sir.

      • Ben April 16, 2014 at 2:40 pm · Reply

        “hauled in” bite your tongue. A hundred years of blood sweat and tears in the Nevada dessert demands respect, have you done something that compares? Who the hell is a native? Answer that if you can. How can you be so obtuse as to miss the point that a mans entire heritage and family and living is at stake through no fault of his own but that the goverment refuses to acknowledge his grazing license.

    • David Williams April 7, 2014 at 3:06 pm · Reply

      and the government plans to kill some desert tortoises for lack of funding….perhaps if they’d stop wasting it on robbing a man of his rights, they’d have money to preserve the toroises???

      http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/08/25/government-plans-to-euthanize-hundreds-of-desert-tortoises-after-budget-cuts-to-refuge/

    • judekach April 14, 2014 at 10:19 pm · Reply

      There is more then a tortoise. The southwest hes been in a long sustained drought for over 15 years. The land-after 150 years of grazing, is no longer renewing itself. Unbridled grazing will turn this land into a useless dustbowl. Have we not learned anything from our past?? Google the effects of overgrazing and view the pictures of the devestation.

      • Ben April 16, 2014 at 2:47 pm · Reply

        Don’t you think ranching year after year for 100 years is proof that it is sustainable? Don’t you get it this is the same acreage he has been using for 100 years and his business is such that the forage has to be renewed year by year or he would be out of business. Bundy has done more to make the land sustainable than the BLM will ever do. The drought is not caused by cattle and will not be fixed by removing them it is cyclical dry and wet periods and you with all your talk and the governments guns will not change that nor save the animals from its effects. Ruining a thousand Bundy’s will not alter it.

  5. James April 5, 2014 at 9:45 am · Reply

    As an outsider who recently located to this area, this whole situation seems silly. All Mr. Bundy had to do was pay the grazing fee. Everyone else who grazes in the state pays the fee, why should Mr. Bundy not? Because his ancestors settled the area? Well then I should not have to pay taxes at all; my first ancestors came here on the Mayflower, long before the US federal government existed. I seems this family and their supporters are now causing problems in Sevier County. The auction house in Monroe where these cattle will be sold has been picketed, and last Wednesday had to be temporarily closed because of the contention brought to that sleepy little town.

    • David Williams April 7, 2014 at 3:04 pm · Reply

      why should the man pay fees to an organization that is wanting to take away what is rightfully his, since before the BLM even existed????

      • Tom Lowe April 11, 2014 at 11:44 pm · Reply

        What part of “IT IS NOT HIS” do you not understand???

        • Ben April 16, 2014 at 2:59 pm · Reply

          What part of “It is his” do you not understand. It is definitely not yours. Did you build the fences, the corrals, the watering holes, the troughs, the roads, control the weeds, pests for the last hundred years. Did you obtain the grazing license to the allotment and pay fees to the BLM until their promises of help became clear lies. Was that you if so you would be the owner. There is no such thing as public land that is a euphemistic way of saying government land and in that context unconstitutional. So this is yet another example of how these government actions are illegal as the constitution is the highest law of the land. I am not bound to obey unjust laws and neither is Clive.

          You think because the government makes a law to take what is yours, after you already own it, that makes it “theirs”. Think again.

    • Nicole B April 10, 2014 at 6:04 pm · Reply

      No kidding! It’s been a rough couple days over here. People who don’t even know what’s going on have to put their two cents in, like they know every detail of the issue. It’s totally annoying. My FB feed has been packed with crap all day.

      • Ben April 16, 2014 at 3:04 pm · Reply

        Please Nicole, enlighten us, What is going on? Maybe it is your ranch being stolen is that whats “going on”?

    • ShockedInKansas April 12, 2014 at 1:01 am · Reply

      Not true Sir. The BLM is like trying to do a deal with a corrupt attorney who knows how to put on a good show for the uninformed public but inside is full of bad intent. The BLM was set to take his range long before fees became an issue. Need proof? Where are the 52 other ranches that were , like Bundy, paying their fees back in the 90′s? Did all 52 of them decide to willingly give up there rights that are suppose to run in perpetuity with the land? Or were they bullied off the land? I know many that would have been and are willing to buy them if they wanted out of there own free will.

      I real dislike articles like this that knowingly or unknowingly build up intellectual dishonesties for others to be honest to. Harry Reid and Mitt Romney did not pay his taxes type thing. Disgraceful. Wake up people.

    • Ben April 16, 2014 at 2:51 pm · Reply

      You are definitely an outsider. Learn the whole story before you comment and this post is definitely not the whole story. Clive has a grazing license that is not honored by the government. The BLM tried to put him out of business telling him no cattle could be grazed so who exaclty should he have been paying?

      In all likeliehood you should not have to pay any of the taxers that you currently pay and you should be mad about it.

  6. aja April 5, 2014 at 9:55 am · Reply

    Unconstitutional laws imposed upon the people are to be trampled upon by we the people. It is time to stand up against the tyranny of this abusive Federal Government and the progressive/commie enviros. Kudos to Bundy and eat my shorts Hyland!

  7. Mr. Doug April 5, 2014 at 9:58 am · Reply

    Very well expressed, particularly the last few paragraphs.

  8. Bundy supporter April 5, 2014 at 10:29 am · Reply

    You people do not have the facts straight. Mr Bundy has paid his fees, he has paid for the rights of the land, and has kept the land up so we the people can enjoy it. The federal government is the ones trying to close it off, reduce your cattle by 50% one year and then a few years later “oh we need you to reduce your herd again”. eventually there will be no land for any of us to enjoy. GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT before you go off with your mouth. Mr Kociela get a life we are glad your gone….

    • NorthernNV April 10, 2014 at 4:31 am · Reply

      The diseased ones.

    • NorthernNV April 10, 2014 at 4:33 am · Reply

      I guess the Bundy don’t have their facts right you should inform them. He admits to not paying fees.

  9. L2Write April 5, 2014 at 10:30 am · Reply

    Learn to write. You’re just babbling on and on. This site is losing credibility by the article. Report the news and leave your bias and sarcasm at 4chan. These liberal R-Tards are so jealous it’s funny to read their comments “I do, so they should have to” every comment is the same. It’s sad the world is filling with that mentality and no wonder there’s so much focus on irrelevant issues these days. What a bunch of whiners.

  10. TARRELL April 5, 2014 at 10:31 am · Reply

    I think its time for you to move out of southern Utah. Now.
    Go back to New York and spew your government propaganda.

  11. Bub April 5, 2014 at 11:36 am · Reply

    When BIG GUBMUNT and Obama offer any kind of freebies though, these right-wing libertarian clowns are first in line to get at them. Hypocrites much?

  12. Kyle Waite April 5, 2014 at 12:23 pm · Reply

    You don’t mention that even if Mr. Bundy paid his grazing rights, the government would have refused to renew those rights. The government simply wanted his cows gone based on the supposed fact that the cows were ruining the desert area where they roam. As a fifth generation Nevadan, who has spent countless hours in our beloved desert, keep up the fight Cliven. I am sick and tired of the government claiming land as “protected” so it is virtually unusable. Get your story right before you attack an entire region of people. Eventually It will come back to bite you hard!

  13. MerrHell April 5, 2014 at 2:01 pm · Reply

    The waste is the BLM trucks… employees… field offices… administrators… Dept of Interior… I can guarantee you the government has spent $millions studying the Bundys and will spend tens of $millions before they are done trying to kick him and his cows off their land. Clive doesn’t cost the government a cent, or the taxpayer. Anyone who supports the BLM here is supporting fraud waste and abuse of taxpayer dollars at gargantuan levels. And any revenue the BLM would get is peanuts in comparison… yet they refuse the fees because they want to create a taking incident, where they steal form the landowner.

    • GPM April 5, 2014 at 3:40 pm · Reply

      The waste is a direct result of Mr. Bundy not obeying the law. He lost in Federal Court, get over it.

      • Kc Coleman April 5, 2014 at 10:46 pm · Reply

        Amen.

        • David Williams April 7, 2014 at 3:01 pm · Reply

          you are praying to the WRONG GOD….but, this was forseen long ago, was it not?

      • Rainbowruth April 6, 2014 at 11:04 am · Reply

        Federal court hearing a case for the federal government? Huh? You liberals enjoy your hamburger, salads, milk, eggs, and bread. These are produced by the farmers and ranchers the federal government is progressively stifling with uninformed regulation. You had better acquire a taste for turtle, hump back chub and the ants you so lovingly fight to protect.

      • David Williams April 7, 2014 at 3:01 pm · Reply

        and they will be killing desert tortoises…the government, that is:

        http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/08/25/government-plans-to-euthanize-hundreds-of-desert-tortoises-after-budget-cuts-to-refuge/

      • ShockedInKansas April 12, 2014 at 1:17 am · Reply

        Ever played in a game when the striped shirts were from the same little town as the opposing team? And and officiated to help the home town players? Many seam to want to take the easy way out and hide behind process instead of doing the moral and just thing? Come on people we need to be better than this.

      • Ben April 16, 2014 at 3:07 pm · Reply

        His loss was unjust, people who kowtow to unjust laws deserve the outcomes.

        He made them waste money? How? Because in describing the how you will see that it is the government that caused the waste.

  14. MerrHell April 5, 2014 at 3:49 pm · Reply

    Is the paper “moderating out” dissenting opinion? My post has been “awaiting moderation” for hours!

    • Joyce Kuzmanic
      Joyce Kuzmanic April 5, 2014 at 4:13 pm · Reply

      We moderate all day all night and sometimes in the wee morning hours if we are awake, MerrHell. Been doing so today and haven’t killed a comment yet, how about I check to see if yours got caught by the spam trap?
      ST. GEORGE NEWS | STGnews.com
      Joyce Kuzmanic
      Editor in Chief

      • Real Life April 5, 2014 at 10:36 pm · Reply

        You are doing a fine job Joyce. How quickly people forget that if it were’nt for you guys, people would not be able to spout off their opposition to what ever cause. Keep up the good work.

      • Brian Daniels April 6, 2014 at 8:26 am · Reply

        Joyce, thank you for all you do. I love the site and get the bulk of my STG news here. In the comment section… one of the biggest problems I have is that there is no notification system if someone replies to a comment I make on an article. I usually like to rebut/discuss/defend/support if someone has something they directly to say to me once I have commented. I believe this would create a more lively discussion. As it sits right now, I have to remember the articles that I commented on from weeks previous to see if anyone had something to say to me. Once again, thanks for all you do!

        • Joyce Kuzmanic
          Joyce Kuzmanic April 6, 2014 at 8:35 am · Reply

          Oh! Mr. Daniels! You just proved one of the many values of these comment threads. And now you know I am not the wizard behind the platform as I thought you all do get notification of replies to your comments. Let me see if that can be done. Watch and see. Thank you so much, :D
          ST. GEORGE NEWS | STGnews.com
          Joyce Kuzmanic
          Editor in Chief

    • David Williams April 7, 2014 at 2:59 pm · Reply

      there is no “free press” anymore. Just a bunch of government propagandists in disguise. they do moderate out dissenting views. bet on that. amazing to me how people don’t see what’s going on in this country.

      • Tom Lowe April 12, 2014 at 12:17 am · Reply

        No, David Williams, it’s actually a bit different but camoflaged to appear to be as you say. …
        Ed. ellipsis

  15. Mary April 5, 2014 at 5:47 pm · Reply

    I can call 9 whine whine for you all if need be. Just let me know.

  16. JAR April 5, 2014 at 6:50 pm · Reply

    Don’t spread this around but, I live up on the Black ridge, up by the ‘Big D’ in the sky in St. George. Recently, I saw a wild mouse in the rocks up the hill aways. I’m sure if the BLM or a sincere PETA lawyer saw those big sarrowful eyes of that mouse, they would demand that the whole Black Ridge neighborhood vacate or pay a yearly fee, get a walking licence for the privdege to live there.

  17. Randy T April 5, 2014 at 6:55 pm · Reply

    Wow, it’s funny and sad to sit here and read all of the Tea Party nuts trying to make use of reason and fact. Get over it, Bundy was in violation of law, he got his due process and he lost in federal court! Thanks to him and other right wing nuts it’s costing me as a taxpayer and arm and a leg to support his ‘I’m better than everyone else so the federal government owes me” mentality. Get over yourself people, your not God’s chosen ones.

    • Rainbowruth April 6, 2014 at 11:15 am · Reply

      So you feel the federal government and it’s courts are omniscient? Randy T perhaps a study of the constitution is in order. Due to your remarks either you are; simply a hater of conservative beliefs, uneducated as to where food comes from, or intoxicated. Liberal initiatives are destroying our ability to produce what we need to exist. Electricity doesn’t come from light switches in YOUR home but from coal energy, milk/bread/eggs/lettuce/fruit do not come from the grocery store but from the animals and crops managed by farmers and ranchers, alcoholic beverages don’t come from a tap…

    • David Williams April 7, 2014 at 2:57 pm · Reply

      And it’s sad to see you pro government nuts sit here and justify the tyranny over us all. Be sure to cash your government check asap.

    • Ben April 16, 2014 at 3:10 pm · Reply

      He has a grazing license that is not honored by the government. Is that too much reason and fact for you?

  18. Ang29 April 5, 2014 at 7:42 pm · Reply

    Mr. Buddy has paid his grazing fees to his county. He fired the BLM from managing his allotments because he felt they were mismanaging them. Also, the desert tortoise can live for nearly 2 weeks off of a cow patty. When the cows were pulled of the ranges the tortoise population declined, partly because they didn’t have that cow pie for food and moisture, and partly because they were burned when the fire happened, because the cows weren’t there to keep the grasses down.

    • Kc Coleman April 5, 2014 at 10:51 pm · Reply

      He fired the BLM???? Oh… Now that’s just funny!!!! He has NOT paid his grazing fees, and he is grazing his cattle for free illegally, and costing everyone money. I’m sure there is property somewhere that he could purchase ….oh but wait…that would cost HIM money. The courts have ruled against him time and time again. For the record? Firing the BLM, is like firing the DNR… That’s just laughable. I’ll probably laugh about that all next week …..

      • Rainbowruth April 6, 2014 at 11:26 am · Reply

        KC…do you have any clue as to the total due for Mr. Bundy’s fees? Your premises is that the federal government is in the right and that Mr. Bundy is stealing from the whole. Are you defending the federal government? The very entity that just this week found out they cant find $6 billion dollars. Are you for real? A family has been successfully running a cattle ranch not withstanding the federal government. The BLM has spent millions in wasted time, court costs, fuel, energy over the past twenty years, far exceeding any grazing fee’s. This isn’t about fees it’s about freedom. Hope your garden is growing !

      • Tom Lowe April 12, 2014 at 12:37 am · Reply

        Well heck KC, ANG29 says Bundy did pay his grazing fee to his county! BWA-HA–HA-HA-HA-HA! And here I was hoping all along that he would pay them to me! (Since he likes to make his own rules, dictate to the Feds, the State and the County, he could maybe cut me a break so that I can get in line at the store behind all the WIC customers from Utah.) WHERE DOES FOOD COME FROM? Eastern Nevada??? I don’t think so. It comes from factory farms in libtard land. Sad but true.

      • Ben April 16, 2014 at 3:16 pm · Reply

        His labor and material didn’t cost anything? All the improvement he has made to the land isn’t his? The BLM were supposed to support the ranchers by helping to manage the land then they didn’t help. He has purchased it with his sweat and money. He has a license to graze (that is not honored by the government) to use that land. How the … is he “costing everyone money” it is the government taking your tax dollars not Clive he never asked for them and dosn’t use them and doesn’t need them.
        Ed. ellipsis.

  19. Tbeau April 5, 2014 at 10:44 pm · Reply

    It’s sad that so many of us don’t understand the true concept of “The land of the free”! The government has gotten away with so much that we refuse to see how far we are from the Constitution!! The Bundy’s probably won’t win this fight…but those who sit back and pretend that all is well in this great America are the real losers!! This isn’t just about grazing rights and permit fees not paid-it’s about a body of government and rich people who think the land is too precious for us to enjoy-that we should just look at it from afar! REALLY? That’s not what God intended and YES I said the G word!

    • Tom Lowe April 12, 2014 at 12:42 am · Reply

      But Bundy thinks “The land of the free” means “The land is free.”

  20. Shane Destry April 6, 2014 at 11:31 am · Reply

    The key sentence in this article is that “the BLM has been derelict in its duty” . Its primary duty has been to protect the public land and wildlife sustained by it, including wild horses, not to sell grazing permits and lease fracking permits to welfare cattlemen like Bundy which destroy the water and wildlife forever ! The BLM for many generations have been corrupted by corporate interests who wish to exploit public lands for their own profit. They have become a self-sustaining bureaucracy whose goal seems to be only sustaining themselves with $$$ from corporate interests, thereby encouraging those like Bundy to believe that public lands are theirs to destroy along with wild horse herds they continue to round up illegally and sent to slaughter in Canada ! The BLM has become an out of control monster spawning lesser monsters like Bundy who were created in their own image . It is time for the American people to remind both welfare cattlemen like Bundy and the BLM that public lands belong to the people not the corporate profiteers intent on destroying them !

    • Dallas Hyland April 7, 2014 at 9:25 am · Reply

      Shane,

      Thank you. I was beginning to wonder if anyone caught that.

    • Ben April 16, 2014 at 3:37 pm · Reply

      You don’t know what the BLM is supposed to do. They were supposed to help the ranchers manage the grazing land. Do you really think ranchers would have went along with the BLM at it’s inception if they were told that they would be kicked off their land for a tortoise?

      “Public lands belong to the people” is garbage. You can’t do anything with public land that the goverment does not allow and it isn’t being put up for a vote by the people. If you want land to hike on, go buy some, and see how well that pays off. You don’t understand intrinsic value.

      Bundy (an obviously filthy rich corporate rancher) has destroyed the land and that is why he and his family have been able to raise cattle there for generations, because, hey, cattle live off dirt, right? You know they just eat dirt. They don’t need anything but dirt, no water, no forage, just dirt. A ranchers first order of business is to defoliate his entire property so the cattle will have more dirt to eat.

      The poor wild horses that didn’t even live here natively but are the mongrels of roaming lost horses, we just need to return the desert to it’s pristine condition when it wasn’t used at all and completely popluated by, horses. Horses treat the land so much better than cattle, because horses don’t eat at all, or poop, or move, right?

      The lesson to learn is don’t trust the government with anthing ever.

      “Welfare Cattleman” a family that has worked for 100 years to manage the land and made a living from it and you equate that with welfare. Even obeying the lawsup until the point at which the laws was made unjust and turned them into outlaws. Have you ranched, built barns, roads, fences, reservoirs, watering holes, sheds, troughs, controlled pests, weeds and produced a comodity that helps people live a high quality of life and maintained that for 100 years, I wish everyone on welfare would do as much, we would live in a Utopia.

  21. Wyly April 6, 2014 at 12:29 pm · Reply

    Why can’t a joint and workable solution be found between the Blm and the Bundy’s. My gosh, we are all Americans living in America, can’t we get along private citizens and government?

    • Ben April 16, 2014 at 3:38 pm · Reply

      Not when the government comes to steal your land and recoils on their promises in this case a grazing contract.

  22. Margaret April 6, 2014 at 6:11 pm · Reply

    I don’t get why these ranchers in Utah are standing with this rancher who is in defiance of federal law. He has allowed his cattle to trespass on public lands. These county commissioners know perfectly well if they touch any wild horse they could be fined, jailed or both.

    There is no room for working this stuff out. NAS said there is no surplus of horses. And euthanizing horses on the range is not legal no matter how much BLM would have you believe otherwise. Sterilizing mares is NOT acceptable surgery. In the domesticate world it isn’t done. Gelding studs is not management.

    This hot headed attitude is what is causing me to boycott beef. The more ranchers won’t share resources the harder my own personal resolve.

    • ShockedInKansas April 12, 2014 at 1:32 am · Reply

      If there is over population than a tipping point is reached and most of the herd dies. Kind of like spending more than you make one day it doesn’t work anymore.

    • Ben April 16, 2014 at 3:40 pm · Reply

      Try to understand this. There is a mouse in your back yard. Someone decides it is endangered. They tell you to get out. You say but I have a title to my yard. They say we revoke it. Get out. You say no. They wait twenty years and come back with guns.

  23. Ang29 April 6, 2014 at 11:15 pm · Reply

    Mr. Bundy has tried so many times to improve the conditions of the land and the water, not only for his cattle but for all the animals ranging out there. At every turn he has encountered some stupid environmentalist group that is forcing him to stop the improvements. The so called “wild” horses out there are starving themselves and the other animals to death because they are way over-populated. If you force all the cattlemen off of the ranges then where are you going to get that yummy free-range beef? The cattlemen have the right.

    Nevada has a fence off law, that says that the BLM has to maintain their own fences and that if they don’t want people on their land, they have to keep their fences up. It is not Mr. Bundy’s fault that the BLM doesn’t have the funding to maintain their fences.

    • NorthernNV April 10, 2014 at 4:44 am · Reply

      Posting anything with Alex Jones hurts the cause. “Fruit from the poisonous tree”

  24. nostrdav April 7, 2014 at 1:01 pm · Reply

    At heart here is the Constitution. Check Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17. Congress has exclusive jurisdiction over Washington DC, Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, Dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings. Moreover, the small plots of ground for these singular purposes must be purchased from and with the consent of the State in which they reside. This is very simple. The federal government does not have exclusive jurisdiction over the public lands within any State. Cliven has therefore correctly paid the grazing fees to the correct governmental entity – Clark County as a municipal subdivision of the State of Nevada. The federal agents are acting completely out of their jurisdiction. That is what is at issue here and Cliven knows it.

    • Bender April 7, 2014 at 4:45 pm · Reply

      Whoa a Constitutional Lawyer right here on St. George news! What’s your hourly dude? I wanna sue the Feds for hurting my feelings MORE THAN ONCE. The pain, the pain….

    • Nancy April 13, 2014 at 4:23 am · Reply

      Actually Article IV, Section 3, of the US Constitution applies her (not that part of Article I. The conservative Heritage Foundation has a nice article explaining the right of the federal government to own (for the people) and manage federal land.
      http://www.heritage.org/constitution/#!/articles/4/essays/126/property-clause

  25. David Williams April 7, 2014 at 2:53 pm · Reply

    and yet, the government plans to kill desert tortoises for lack of funding??? Does anyone buy this BS??? I’m very saddened to see the pro-government sentiment of so many of you. SHAME ON YOU. Bundy’s family was using that land long before the BLM existed. He shouldn’t have to pay fees. But, you go right ahead and keep sucking up to your masters.

    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/08/25/government-plans-to-euthanize-hundreds-of-desert-tortoises-after-budget-cuts-to-refuge/

  26. David Williams April 7, 2014 at 3:10 pm · Reply

    and by the way, to the author of this article, you are WAY OFF KILTER! WAY OFF! But, I see the press is doing it’s best to spread propaganda even in the midst of “Zion.”

  27. F that April 7, 2014 at 3:41 pm · Reply

    What a bunch of bootlickers! Dallas Hyland being the biggest one of them all!

  28. Bob April 7, 2014 at 4:09 pm · Reply

    Yes, in these parts (like George Washington Law School), the law professors (like Jonathan Turley, a true liberal) are so distrusting of government, that such legal analysis should fall on deaf ears

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-rise-of-the-fourth-branch-of-government/2013/05/24/c7faaad0-c2ed-11e2-9fe2-6ee52d0eb7c1_story.html

  29. David Williams April 7, 2014 at 5:21 pm · Reply

    Nazi Germany was FULL of people like these above, who blindly support “government,” which is only a giant machine which uses FORCE to accomplish it’s goals. Illegal for us to do, but evidently, you get magical powers when you put on a uniform and swear allegiance to this tyrannical regime. You people should all be ashamed, but I doubt you know what shame is.

  30. nostrdav April 7, 2014 at 6:41 pm · Reply

    Also, take a look at the NRS 321 series of Nevada Revised Statutes. The laws were passed by the Nevada legislature in response to that era of heavy handed federal activity under the then DemoTyranny administration of Jimmy Carter. That era spawned the Sagebrush Rebellion which had to be revived in the 90′s under the next heavy handed administration of Bill Clinton. These laws recognize that the 87% of public lands within Nevada rightfully belong to and under the jurisdiction of Nevada. However, the 321 statutes have the one caveat in them that exercise of this jurisdiction is dependent on the concurrence of the Attorney General – an elected position in Nevada. That is why the AG election has been the most hotly and quietly contested position for 30 years now. But note that this is still saying that the exercise of this jurisdiction is up the the State. The feds have no jurisdiction in this matter. And these BLM goons acting like stormtroopers can be held criminally responsible doing this action out of their jurisdiction. Stealing cattle (rustling), kidnapping, threatening with a deadly weapon, disturbing the peace, impersonating law enforcement, infringing on 1st, 4th, 5th, and 10th amendments in the least, and likely soon the 2nd amendment.

    • Tom Lowe April 12, 2014 at 2:22 am · Reply

      The Nevada AG dictates to the US Government. BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!! So who is it–Frankie De Las Papas Fritas? BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!

  31. David Williams April 7, 2014 at 6:48 pm · Reply

    so, Dallas Hymen, while I’m sure YOU, in your infinite loyalty to the federal government, would lick their boots whenever they tell you, I just have to know if you REALLY believe that this is about tortoises, or land use fees, or any of the other garbage excuses government uses to rule over our lives. At some point, even a good little boy like you, will have to question what is going on around you. But, uh, it’s gonna be way past too late by now. Your children, and their children, if they can get licenses to breed, will be good little slaves. It’s in the DNA.

    • Dallas Hyland April 8, 2014 at 9:41 am · Reply

      Is this Sgt. David Williams of the St. George Police Department?

      • David Williams April 8, 2014 at 2:19 pm · Reply

        really? do I sound like a cop? most cops I know would be clamoring over each other to have a chance to help the rangers kill someone. or certainly, doing a good job of justifying their masters position.

    • Tom Lowe April 12, 2014 at 2:32 am · Reply

      “licenses to breed” … now THAT is a VERY GOOD IDEA! If you need a license to marry, then all the more reason to need a license to breed. Raising a newborn child is far more socially complex and physically technical than merely getting married to another adult. Serious child rearing training is absolutely necessary to ensure optimum health of newborn. Otherwise results are what you used to see in the inner cities which by now has spread to Apartmentland, Suburbia.

  32. RYCO April 7, 2014 at 11:35 pm · Reply

    So I’ve been trying to piece this thing together and I do believe there’s more background than is stated in the article. As a fellow cattleman, let me summarize what MIGHT be the inherent issue: In ’94, the BLM came to Cliven requesting some type of change to his existing grazing permit structure, likely for one of two reasons: either requiring a reduction in cattle allowed to graze or possibly higher fees (maybe both). Gov’t agencies do this for mutliple reasons, e.g. drought and land management/overgrazing for one, but another and likely the more probable reason would be to reduce his grazing impact so that wild mustangs can have more grazing access to the land his cattle have historically grazed or possibly in the name of protecting the desert tortoise. Really, it doesn’t matter what reason, any of the above would likely have called into question Cliven’s continued use of the land as it had been managed for generations and moreover, he may have felt this is just the start of ever increasing gov’t dictation of how he should run his ranch, with more restrictions coming year after year, until he is driven completly out of business.
    Feeling this an imminent threat to how his ranch has operated for more than a century, Cliven likely told the BLM to “shove it” on the premise they shouldn’t have jurisdiction there in Clark County, NV anyway and he then took it upon himself to only deal with the county and state government as if they were the “true” authority on those lands. As a result, he ended up paying his grazing fees directly to them (whom might have actually accepted payment, however, its more likely they would have just refunded Cliven back his money since legally they wouldn’t have been invoicing him for grazing on federal ground). Regardless, the BLM’s accounting would show they’d never received payment and thus claim that Cliven has been grazing “rent free” since 1994. Further, my guess is that each time the BLM stepped in to try to enforce federal grazing standards here, either the grazer or county or state may have clouded the issue by saying that they’ve been handing the issue since ’94 and possibly this may explain why its taken 20 years for the BLM to finally ensure they are legally cleared to act to physically remove the cattle.

    I’m curious if I am remotely close to the factual story here?

    If these assumptions are anywhere near correct, while I sympathize with Cliven’s cause, he’s still at fault for not going through the proper channels. I guess I’d understand why he might choose not to deal with the BLM, if in the end, they will just dictate how he runs his cattle on the land and their restrictions threaten his way of life.
    But bottom line is he’s still in the wrong. You can’t just choose to deal with a different level of government on gov’t lands, even if you vehemently protest their control over those lands in the first place. That’s not how the system was ever supposed to work. As costly and dismal as the prospect sounds, he should have taken the fight to BLM via lawsuit way back in ’94 with whatever his objections were at the time. Had he done that and yet finds himself still in the predicament he’s in now, everyone would be on his side on this and I guarantee he’d have a legal fund already maxed with donations to fight them. But as it stands, I think he may lose this one.

    • David Williams April 8, 2014 at 10:32 am · Reply

      does it matter, at the end of the day, what kind of pants and shirt the extortionist or thief is wearing??? You sound so at ease with this legalized form of extortion….you don’t even see it. The government doesn’t care about fees. They have spent far more on this sting than his cattle are worth. They want his entire ranch. And people like you, good little nazi boot lickers, are going to stand by and justify the tyranny of the state over our lives. People like YOU are in league with evil. YOU ARE KILLING THIS MAN. He will die free. You, will continue to live in slavery. PATHETIC!

    • nostrdav April 8, 2014 at 1:15 pm · Reply

      The comments by RYCO are at least calm and rational. But, as with most people just uninformed with Constitutional history. The Constitutional principle at issue here is actually very simple. It is called the Equal Footing Doctrine. This is a bonafide doctrine beginning with the adoption of the federal Constitution and basically says that any new state admitted into the Union are entered on an equal footing with the original 13 colonies become States. There was no “federal” land in the original colonies other than the forts, dockyards, arsenals etc, for purposes of “National” defense as then authorized under the Articles of Confederation giving very limited powers to the Continental Congress. This arrangement was later codified in the aforementioned Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17 of the newly adopted federal Constitution. The principle is very simple – it is the following 200 years of obfuscation, political manipulations, and betrayal that are the complicated part of the history. As late as 1894 basic high school civics textbooks were teaching that – and using the upcoming entry of Utah as a State – the public lands held by the federal government while Utah was a Territory would pass to the newly formed State. A century of federal usurpation of this principle has confused the issue such that the average citizen is not aware of what has happened. In fact, it is as late as 1976 with the passage of FLPMA that the feds actually first stated that they were going to keep the public lands in perpetuity. That stemmed at least from the inventory of federal jurisdictions conducted under the Eisenhower Administration which showed – using Churchill County, Nevada as an example – that the feds only have exclusive jurisdiction to 0.3% of that county. The rest of the lands held by the federal government are in trust only to be disposed of to the States or the People. Preferably to the people, hence all the traditional laws providing for privatization of lands and associated rights under the various Homestead, Mining, Desert Entry, Grazing, Timber and Stone Acts. The property held in trust by the federal government is property held only in proprietor status and subject to the laws of the State of Nevada as with any other property owner. The distinction is that this proprietor is a government entity (of limited powers) and can’t be taxed. All the more reason to pass the lands to the State for solvency purposes. This is what the NRS 321 statutes were passed for and is therefore incumbent upon the State to exercise. Why hasn’t this happened? All the political shenanigans along the way by self serving, corrupt politicians (think Harry Reid) have obfuscated these simple principles, leading to the charade of a power/land grab we are witnessing with Cliven Bundy’s grazing rights.

      • David Williams April 8, 2014 at 2:24 pm · Reply

        If you aren’t incensed, then you aren’t paying attention, and I doubt you could ever understand. Unless maybe it was your family. At what point does someone like you actually climb down off your dictionary and DO SOMETHING about it? You know so much. Why don’t you go there, and throw some words at the rangers. That’ll fix ‘em. Kinda like a “GUN FREE ZONE” sign at a school. Words, like guns, are tools. If you don’t use yours to sow some rage and get people moving on this, then this country is hopelessly lost in apathy. I despise government for what it has become, and those who prop it up with their silent, obedient consent.

      • Tom Lowe April 12, 2014 at 3:38 am · Reply

        So Utah was engaged in wishful thinking as far back as 1894. Under the Homestead Act, the feds offered 160 acres of what is now BLM and other federal land to anyone who would take it. No one wanted this disputed grazing land other than the Bundys, but they already had their Homestead Act 160 acres scot free and would have to actually pay for more. David Williams, don’t you think it was mighty nice of the US government to give the Bundys 160 acres of free land? Especially considering that they were not born on it or anywhere near it? How would you feel if you were given 160 acres of productive land like Bunkerville for free? Would you feel bitter? Would you feel entitled to more? Would you feel entitled to use 600,000 acres more for free like Bundy does? Nobody ever gave ME any free land! So from that standpoint alone, the Bundys are TOTAL FREELOADERS AND ALWAYS HAVE BEEN.

        • nostrdav April 12, 2014 at 1:26 pm · Reply

          Incorrect. Utah was not engaging in wishful thinking, my point is that textbooks for High School Civics classes across the country and written by Constitutional scholars were teaching basic US Government principles back then – unlike today. Further, are you aware that under the Homestead Act, one had to successfully work that land for a number of years in a demonstrable and productive fashion to gain title. Not an easy feat to be self sufficient and self sustaining in the late nineteenth century. Something that I think that modern whiners that are jealous of a misperception that the land was actually just given to Homesteaders and that they in turn haven’t been given “free” land, would totally fail at the hard work to establish such a ranch in a harsh environment.

        • Ben April 16, 2014 at 3:51 pm · Reply

          You are so backwards, successful homesteaders in the Nevada desert are the farthest thing imaginable from free loaders.

    • Tom Lowe April 12, 2014 at 3:10 am · Reply

      “any of the above would likely have called into question Cliven’s continued use of the land as it had been managed for generations and moreover, he may have felt this is just the start of ever increasing gov’t dictation of how he should run his ranch, with more restrictions coming year after year, until he is driven completly out of business.”

      RYCO, David Williams , et al, I have to deal with the same thing every quarter as a seller on eBay when they do their potentially abusive seller updates. They cut me back, I counter somehow, and parity is maintained. Again, see smokingmirrors.com or erichufschmid.net. It’s not easy to keep up with the forces you most probably correctly see as evil, but it can be done. And it must be done in order for you to survive and have a chance to do well. You can even beat them at their own game time after time if you sit back and do some thinking. One advice to you all and to Bundy: don’t “fight City Hall”. Though it’s not always easy to do, you can just go around it. You may lose something in order to gain more later on, but if you try to stand up to and overpower Colossus, you will be creamed and forgotten! On the other hand, if you think you have the power to defeat Colossus, then go for it!! Democratic Russia is preparing to do that right now!

      • Ben April 16, 2014 at 3:54 pm · Reply

        I hope you like it on the plantation. Groveling and sniveling and even sometimes beating them at their own game, yipee? By the way have “they” shown up with guns at you door step. Just wondering?

  33. David Williams April 8, 2014 at 10:40 am · Reply

    Wake up people. Your blind obedience and support of government has led us to a point at which the Constitutional Republic is now the USSA. You have justified the raids, the taxes, the killing, the wars. Germany was full of people just like you. History will always repeat itself, because of the ignorance and naivete of the people. Your gullibility, and belief in this broken, corrupt system. A system of “justice” that is really a revenue generating machine for the state and all it’s agents. Those police chiefs and retired judges with their pensions invested in prisons. Amerikka has the highest prison population in the world, mostly non violent drug offenders. I find it so ironic that many of you would be offended by a bare breast, or the image of a black slave being beaten, yet you would never speak out when you see someone tazed to death by a cop. You would never go out of your pathetic way to say something to your local mayor, when his officers get out of line. You statists make me ashamed to call myself an american. You don’t have a drop of patriotic blood in you, because if you did, you’d remember that the Constitution was meant to protect us from the tyranny of government, and that it is our right to fight back with deadly force when they step out of line. I see nothing but a bunch of boot licking cowards on this webpage, with very few exceptions. You GET WHAT YOU DESERVE, and … IS COMING TO VISIT USSA, and that soon.
    Ed. ellipsis.

    • Tom Lowe April 12, 2014 at 3:47 am · Reply

      We agree with you on the big picture but the Bundy thing is just a guy not paying his rent, whether you realize that or not. BTW Patriot = Statist = Statist = Patriot. By definition.

      • nostrdav April 12, 2014 at 1:33 pm · Reply

        In whose dictionary?

  34. David Williams April 8, 2014 at 12:39 pm · Reply

    lol. seriously? “HELL” is a NOUN. It is a theoretical place. I didn’t use it in a fashion that made it a curse word. lol. LOFL. ROFL. geeze. America is GONE people.

    • Dallas Hyland April 8, 2014 at 3:37 pm · Reply

      conspiracy much?

      • David Williams April 8, 2014 at 5:20 pm · Reply

        you ever wanna chat in person, let me know. if you think there are no conspiracies, you are a bigger fool than you look. that, or you’re simply a good little nazi citizen. HEIL!

  35. David Williams April 8, 2014 at 5:18 pm · Reply

    If anyone is interested in standing up for something, join us….

    https://www.facebook.com/events/1481481458731019/1481571632055335/?notif_t=event_mall_reply

  36. NotFrom UtahBut April 8, 2014 at 6:00 pm · Reply

    So if the federal government can’t own land other than the narrow interpretation of Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17, then how could the US Government have accepted the land as part of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo?

    That clearly must have been illegal and Utah needs to be given back to Mexico.

    • Chris April 8, 2014 at 7:16 pm · Reply

      Good point. If the feds were never empowered to own land, then no state, aside from the original thirteen, could have existed legally. Of course, Cliven Bundy and his cohorts haven’t thought through this. Their ignorance of history and law is truly amazing.

    • nostrdav April 9, 2014 at 1:18 pm · Reply

      Incorrect, because it was gained as Territorial lands. Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17 applies within a State. The 1848 Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo is similar to the Louisiana Purchase before it. The federal government can own Territory such as Guam, Puerto Rico currently, and once owned Hawaii and Alaska before Statehood. This also goes back to the Northwest and Southwest Ordinances of lands from which the earlier eastern States were created – on an Equal Footing with the original thirteen.

      Interestingly, Puerto Rico’s population has turned down the idea of an Enabling Act for Statehood. Presumably, in this day and age, they are so far gone on the federal teat that the concept of sovereignty and solvency as a State scares them off. And in this day and age with the feds running Constitutionally amok with their alphabet soup agencies closing down productive industry and access to the public lands, maybe it is just not worth it. Citizens of the public land States are indeed second class citizens.

      • Chris April 12, 2014 at 8:59 am · Reply

        You are completely wrong about Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17. That clause refers to land ceded by states to the federal government. The land in question with Cliven Bundy, and indeed nearly all federal land in the west, was in the possession of the federal government prior to statehood, and thus was never ceded by the states. Your ignorance of the Constitution is amazing.

        • nostrdav April 12, 2014 at 1:52 pm · Reply

          Well, let’s test this interpretation. Ohio was the first public lands state entered into the Union in 1803. Yes, these lands were ceded to the then general government prior to adoption of the federal Constitution. But even then, the Northwest Ordinance recognized the Equal Footing Doctrine which is why it was built into the new federal Constitution and cited in every Statehood Enabling Act. How much “federal” public land do you see in Ohio? As another example there is the entry of Texas into the Union. For ten years there it was it’s own nation – The Republic of Texas. When entering the Equal Footing Doctrine was Constitutionally applied – but in reverse – and certain lands had to be ceded to the federal government for the exact enumerated purposes under Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17. But guess what, this did not include huge tracts of public land. There were indeed public lands but they remained as State lands. Also to be privatized through various means, and guess what, Texas is one of the most economically solvent States in the Union.

    • Tom Lowe April 12, 2014 at 3:59 am · Reply

      I’m very much in favor of giving Utah back to Mexico. They can move it back down there on the back of a long flatbed.

  37. NotFrom UtahBut April 8, 2014 at 10:30 pm · Reply

    And isn’t it wonderful that we live in America where if some folks believe one thing about the law and other folks believe another thing about the law we have a court system to arbitrate and rule on what the law really is?

    Just because someone fervently believes their laws mean one thing doesn’t mean they get to ignore what a court has ruled is the law and not follow court orders.

    • nostrdav April 9, 2014 at 1:32 pm · Reply

      This area has similar jurisdictional issues. Not every dispute goes to the correct Court of Jurisdiction these days. The old adage of “Don’t make a federal case out of it” used to have meaning. Just as in public land issues, there used to be properly recognized jurisdictions to bring cases to. Adjudicating Cliven Bundy’s grazing rights used to be the purview of the State. It is interesting to note that most of the federal court system did not even exist for a good part of the early history of this country. Note how adjudications and filings of grazing, water, wildlife, deeds, marriage, deaths, land taxation, and even filing of mining claims were all done at the county level at your local courthouse. We were never meant to be vassals of Washington DC. All that has come with the creeping usurpation of the last hundred + years.

    • David Williams April 10, 2014 at 10:47 am · Reply

      the “law” can be used for good or for bad. Depending on who writes the laws and how they write them. Currently, we have a very unfriendly justice system created to give power to the state and those who get classically educated. A guy like Bundy has little chance, because while he is well versed in common sense, natural law or common law and the Constitution’s basic rights, it takes wordsmiths, like you wizards to come here and tell us all how stupid we are for not following this rigged game to the letter, so obviously, WE’RE GUILTY!!!

      This game has been rigged, sir, and while you may take great pride in your supposed understanding of the law, I’m sure the nazi’s prided themselves for their “laws,” as well as other tyrants through history, who made laws to benefit them and make it easier to take from others.

      Right now, the law everyone needs to be concerned about is Agenda 21. Have you heard of that?

    • Ben April 16, 2014 at 4:01 pm · Reply

      Yes, forget whether it is just, just kowtow to whatever the court says. King George had a court also.

  38. Lex April 9, 2014 at 11:36 am · Reply

    When they take his cattle and land, it will be used to settle illegal debt to of shore banks and given to a multinational corporation who will get those rights.

  39. Dave April 9, 2014 at 6:47 pm · Reply

    Cliven Bundy is one of a long line of Western State ranchers who have been fighting the feds (BLM and USFS) for decades over their historically protected use of the public land and water for cattle grazing. Historically, many court cases have ruled in favor of the ranchers and laws have been enacted to protect their rights. The feds and their legal machine just ignore this fact. They are killing the ranches and the families that own them, one at a time, with their rules and unconstitutional tactics. States have sovereignty in this matter but are being intimidated by the fed’s hammer. The current crisis is just a repeat of the Nevada Wayne Hage battle that started in the 90′s, and was just adjudicated in 2013.

    See; http://nj.npri.org/nj98/04/hage.htm
    and:
    http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/15602-federal-judge-rules-for-property-rights-smacks-down-abusive-feds

    Déjà vu

    The BLM and Clark County have not acted ethically or honorably in regard to this ranch and rancher. Just reduce the permit and water use incrementally until the rancher has nothing left. He can scarcely afford to fight the Goliath.

    The Bundy case is not really that unique.

  40. Bobby April 10, 2014 at 6:39 am · Reply

    OH so what your saying is the desert tortoise has nothing to do with it. Gotcha. I don’t know i guess paying the grazing fees would somehow change that. So when a law gets changed and puts you on the other side of the fence no one should support you? Your arguments here are not relevant to the issue. You just said you were on a hike should that land be controlled by those that actually live there”local government” or the federal? This is the definition of fascism. Right or wrong?

  41. JOSH DALTON April 10, 2014 at 8:56 am · Reply

    Being that this has also become a civil rigths issue, I guess these hicks now know how it feels to be gay or black. Oh, we also can’t forget how this land was stolen from the Natives in the first place by the Government. This land is niether parties has far has I am concerned. NOTE: I did not read the article! I do know that this happening in Nevada and the people of Utah should stay the hell out of it! Everybody going down there to sit on the side of the road should dedicate thier time to improving the community of Saint George. Do some community service or something!

  42. Larry April 10, 2014 at 9:54 am · Reply

    The Nevada constitution in 1864 gave the rights to all “unappropriated public lands” to the United States. If he didn’t have title to it in 1864, then the federal government owns it and it is up the Feds to do with it as they wish.
    As a permitee on a grazing allotment he has some rights, but if he quits paying his grazing fees he losses all rights and the cattle are deemed to be trespassing. The federal government, by law, has the right to gather the cattle and sell them to try to recover their expenses incurred while rounding them up.
    If this guy hadn’t been listening to a bunch of right wing nut jobs about supposed rights that he doesn’t have this would have been settled a long time ago.

    • David Williams April 10, 2014 at 10:40 am · Reply

      so, what are you? A LEFT WING NUT JOB???

      Amazing to me, the encroachment of the socialist socialites from NYC, CA, and IL have brought to the west.

  43. David Williams April 10, 2014 at 11:23 am · Reply

    new info I came across for all you legal beagle types….

    “15 years ago, the Nevada Constitution was amended to remove any notion that the fed owns or has legal rights to any public lands. This was in direct compliance with the Supr. Ct Pollard vs Hagan 1845 that said the fed’s demand for inclusion to statehood for Alabama, that specified fed lands for use/control imposed an unequal standing for the state of Alabama, and any state admitted to the union must be done so with even standing as all other states. This means that the feds 1864 inclusion of Nevada into the union which stated that the state of Nevada may never demand control of any public lands from the federal gov’t is unconstitutional and null and void…so all public lands are legally the property and under the control of the state of Nevada. So…this is the state constitution…that all officers elected in the state of Nevada swear an oath to dutifully uphold and defend the constitution of Nevada against all enemies, foreign AND DOMESTIC. My question is…did Gillespie swear an oath? Did Sandoval swear an oath? Did our commissioners swear an oath?” Thanks Jason Smith

    • nostrdav April 11, 2014 at 12:37 pm · Reply

      Good job! A little history goes along way!

  44. nostrdav April 10, 2014 at 11:52 am · Reply

    Incorrect, the Nevada State Enabling Act in 1864 did not give “rights” to the unappropriated lands within the new State, it merely allowed retention of trustee ownership as a proprietor subject to the laws of the State of Nevada. This led to the now confused status dubiously called “Dual Sovereignty” that is thoroughly misunderstood in these days of federal overreach and encroachment. It is not up to the feds to do whatever they wish – if the many facets of the federal Constitution were to be followed. But we know how that goes.

    The federal government’s Constitutional obligation under the Equal Footing Doctrine was/is to dispose of the lands to the States or the People (familiar wording from the Tenth Amendment) through means of entry into demonstrable beneficial use. By means of self sustaining production and prosperity. Hence all the traditional means for individuals to obtain lands and associated property rights such as water, grazing, mineral, etc. In the West where huge tracts of straight out and out land ownership was not sustainable, various rights associated with the land could be obtained. Hence water and grazing rights on public lands held by a productive rancher are private property rights and are adjudicated by the State. And are still part of the assessed tax value of the ranch property. As usual, and typical of many areas of behavior of the federal government, 100 + years of accelerating usurpation including forest reserves, Taylor Grazing Acts, Wilderness Acts, patenting moratoriums serving to betray that trusteeship (much like the Social Security Trust has been entirely betrayed) and now threatens livelihoods and economic solvency of the States and the People. Exactly what the founding fathers tried to avoid with clear separations of power, both horizontally and vertically in the federal Constitution. The remaining remedy at this point is State nullification of the federal excesses, best undertaken by exercising the full State Sovereignty under the Equal Footing Doctrine and management of the public lands. That will take significant kahoneys on the part of the State of Nevada politicians – something those beholden to federal teats (PILT payments for example) are unlikely to do. But the consequences will be the ever accelerating abuses of the rights of the States and the People as we are currently witnessing.

    In the Hage case, the family was extremely fortunate to find a sympathetic and somewhat educated judge in the federal Claims Court. But the case was brought to the wrong jurisdiction. The federal employees deemed in contempt of court and guilty of conspiracy and collusion in that case are the same as the federal goons attacking Cliven Bundy’s livelihood and property and should be arrested by County and State law enforcement for cattle rustling, conspiracy, collusion with private enviro entities, kidnapping at gunpoint, impersonation of law enforcement, and infringement of the public’s 1st, 4th, 5th, and10th Amendment Rights. And probably more.

  45. David Williams April 10, 2014 at 12:04 pm · Reply

    Mr. Bundy’s daughter Shiree Bundy Cox in a letter explains the feud from the family’s perspective:

    “I have had people ask me to explain my dad’s stance on this BLM fight. Here it is in as simple of terms as I can explain it. There is so much to it, but here it s in a nut shell. My great grandpa bought the rights to the Bunkerville allotment back in 1887 around there. Then he sold them to my grandpa who then turned them over to my dad in 1972. These men bought and paid for their rights to the range and also built waters, fences and roads to assure the survival of their cattle, all with their own money, not with tax dollars. The rights to the land use are called preemptive rights. Some where down the line, to keep the cows from over grazing, came the Bureau of Land Management. They were supposed to assist the ranchers in the management of their ranges while the ranchers paid a yearly allotment which was to be use to pay the BLM wages and to help with repairs and improvements of the ranches. My dad did pay his grazing fees for years to the BLM until they were no longer using his fees to help him and to improve. Instead they began using these monies against the ranchers. They bought all the rest of the ranchers in the area out with they’re own grazing fees. When they offered to buy my dad out for a penance he said no thanks and then fired them because they weren’t doing their job. He quit paying the BLM and tried giving his grazing fees to the county, which they turned down. So my dad just went on running his ranch and making his own improvements with his own equipment and his own money, not taxes. In essence the BLM was managing my dad out of business. Well when buying him out didn’t work, they used the endangered species card. You’ve already heard about the desert tortoise. Well that didn’t work either, so then began the threats and the court orders, which my dad has proven to be unlawful for all these years. Now they’re desperate. It’s come down to buying the brand inspector off and threatening the County Sheriff. Everything their doing at this point is illegal and totally against the Constitution of the United States of America. Then there’s the issue of the cattle that are at this moment being stolen. See even if dad hasn’t paid them, those cattle belong to him, regardless of where they are they are my father’s property. His herd has been part of that range for over a hundred years, long before the BLM even existed. Now the Feds think they can just come in and remove them and sell them without a legal brand inspection or without my dad’s signature on it. They think they can take them over two borders, which is illegal, ask any trucker. Then they plan to take them to the Richfield Auction and sell them. All this with our tax money. They have paid off the contract cowboys and the auction owner as well as the Nevada brand inspector with our tax dollars. See how slick they are? Well, this is it in a nut shell. Thanks”

    • Mike April 10, 2014 at 2:04 pm · Reply

      Thank you for sharing I will be supporting the Bundy family as every red blooded American should. What battles do we fight now days and for who? If there was one to fight it would be for the little guy.

  46. Mike April 10, 2014 at 1:55 pm · Reply

    People who clammer for and justify government oppression as necessary are of course the dumbest people on the planet who have no clue about anything. this biased article siding with government rule fails to mention it was land used for 5 generation by the bundy ranch before 300,000.00 was needed by the federal government or animals also known as property would be usurped despite the cattle never generating any expense on the people. In fact you government tools with your head up your butts need to get a clue the more they expand their empire rule and extort from the people both their land property and living the more it will come to roost in your life. Bundy isn’t costing you a dime. does he have an army of brand new SUV’s a helicopter big equipment trucks back hoes a small army on your dime hell freaking no you idiots need to get a clue who the real problem is here before its your problem.

    • Nicole B April 10, 2014 at 5:55 pm · Reply

      Maybe “he” didn’t cost us a dime, but surely it would be a problem and cost us in the future. The land was overgrazed for far too long doing significant damage.

      • David Williams April 10, 2014 at 7:08 pm · Reply

        HOW would it EVER be a problem for YOU??? HOW DID YOU BECOME SO BRAINWASHED??? Hard to tell if people like you are ultra conservative or ultra neo-lib….both factions LOVE big government and praise it like GOD.

    • Tom Lowe April 12, 2014 at 5:04 am · Reply

      5 generations of agrarian welfare freeloading. Man, that’s really something to be proud of.

  47. Nicole B April 10, 2014 at 5:49 pm · Reply

    “The Bureau of Land Management may have taken a long time to finally getting around to enforcing court orders, and I do question that.”

    Because 20-10, even 5, years ago it was easier for ranchers/farmers. People around every bend didn’t have a phone or camera in their pocket so when they got home from their hike/ride/camping, whatever, they had forgotten about complaining, but now they have service everywhere and people complain the moment they are annoyed, so things that may have gone unnoticed for quite some time are being brought up. This may have even gone on longer, but there were apparently enough complaints to raise a brow!

    Sure, he didn’t pay, but that’s only part of the issue. He had more cattle than his permit even allowed which caused over-grazing of the land. the government doesn’t comes after you on the first offense, they write letters and issue warnings and put things off over and over. Bundy must have had some kind of warning! Which, he obviously ignored. This mess all could have been avoided by simply following the law.

    • David Williams April 10, 2014 at 7:10 pm · Reply

      spoken like a true royal subject. HEIL!

    • Ben April 16, 2014 at 4:07 pm · Reply

      Lets quit trying to avoid the mess, this has been along time coming. This is not about being anoyed with the BLM this is about freedom.

  48. Pheo April 11, 2014 at 1:03 pm · Reply

    The thing I find fascinating is that the people that are most prone to wearing their patriotism on their sleeve are the first people to moan every time representative democracy goes against what they think should happen. They might love America, but they hate Americans.

    • Tom Lowe April 12, 2014 at 5:09 am · Reply

      Uh, you wouldn’t be talking about a guy named David Williams, would you? ;-)

  49. agent50 April 14, 2014 at 2:16 pm · Reply

    Executive Order 12548 — Grazing Fees—RONALD REAGAN

    February 14, 1986

    By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and laws of the United States of America, and in order to provide for establishment of appropriate fees for the grazing of domestic livestock on public rangelands, it is ordered as follows:

    Section 1. Determination of Fees. The Secretaries of Agriculture and the Interior are directed to exercise their authority, to the extent permitted by law under the various statutes they administer, to establish fees for domestic livestock grazing on the public rangelands which annually equals the $1.23 base established by the 1966 Western Livestock Grazing Survey multiplied by the result of the Forage Value Index (computed annually from data supplied by the Statistical Reporting Service) added to the Combined Index (Beef Cattle Price Index minus the Prices Paid Index) and divided by 100; provided, that the annual increase or decrease in such fee for any given year shall be limited to not more than plus or minus 25 percent of the previous year’s fee, and provided further, that the fee shall not be less than $1.35 per animal unit month.

    Sec. 2. Definitions. As used in this Order, the term:

    (a) “Public rangelands” has the same meaning as in the Public Rangelands Improvement Act of 1978 (Public Law 95 – 514);

    (b) “Forage Value Index” means the weighted average estimate of the annual rental charge per head per month for pasturing cattle on private rangelands in the 11 Western States (Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, Nevada, Washington, Oregon, and California) (computed by the Statistical Reporting Service from the June Enumerative Survey) divided by $3.65 and multiplied by 100;

    (c) “Beef Cattle Price Index” means the weighted average annual selling price for beef cattle (excluding calves) in the 11 Western States (Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, Nevada, Washington, Oregon, and California) for November through October (computed by the Statistical Reporting Service) divided by $22.04 per hundred weight and multiplied by 100; and

    (d) “Prices Paid Index” means the following selected components from the Statistical Reporting Service’s Annual National Index of Prices Paid by Farmers for Goods and Services adjusted by the weights indicated in parentheses to reflect livestock production costs in the Western States: 1. Fuels and Energy (14.5); 2. Farm and Motor Supplies (12.0); 3. Autos and Trucks (4.5); 4. Tractors and Self-Propelled Machinery (4.5); 5. Other Machinery (12.0); 6. Building and Fencing Materials (14.5); 7. Interest (6.0); 8. Farm Wage Rates (14.0); 9. Farm Services (18.0).

    Sec. 3. Any and all existing rules, practices, policies, and regulations relating to the administration of the formula for grazing fees in section 6(a) of the Public Rangelands Improvement Act of 1978 shall continue in full force and effect.

    Sec. 4. This Order shall be effective immediately.

    Ronald Reagan

    The White House,

    February 14, 1986.

    [Filed with the Office of the Federal Register, 10:32 a.m., February 18, 1986]

  50. JOSH DALTON April 24, 2014 at 3:21 pm · Reply

    Bundy is a RACIST! So this whole thing is a wash! I hope they have him hanged!

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