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Perspectives: Secession is as American as the 4th of July

 OPINION – Critics of the secession petitions currently circulating in all 50 states are correct about a couple of things.

First of all, the timing of these petitions on the heels of a closely fought election seems like a bad case of sour grapes. Secondly, any serious movement toward secession from the U.S. would originate in the state legislatures and would not simply beg permission from the White House.

However, these two points don’t excuse the blatant misinformation and widespread misconceptions regarding the principle of secession.

The very word “secession” has long been considered outside the boundaries of approved opinion. The political left tries to equate the word with a desire to dodge nationalized health care while the political right claims secession is merely the battle cry of disgruntled pot smokers. But the facts and the historical record show these assertions to be laughably false.

Secession played a key role in the birth of America by providing a valid remedy for the people to remove themselves from an unjust or tyrannical government.

The Declaration of Independence states, “That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”

Think about it, what hundreds of millions of Americans celebrate every Fourth of July is an independence rooted in secession.

Predictably, the tyrannical government of King George sought to prevent the peaceable departure of the colonists through brute force. When the Treaty of Paris ending the War for Independence was signed in 1783, each individual state was named separately in the treaty.

This is a crucial point that illustrates that the 13 original states had not become some indistinguishable conglomerate, but retained their individual identities and powers while maintaining the sovereignty of their respective people.

Critics often claim that secession is unconstitutional, but no mention of the word is found anywhere within the text of the Constitution. In fact, during the Philadelphia convention of 1787, a suggestion was made to add language allowing the federal government to prevent any state from leaving the union.

James Madison, widely regarded as the father of the Constitution, shot down this idea saying, “A Union of the States containing such an ingredient seemed to provide for its own destruction. The use of force against a State would look more like a declaration of war than an infliction of punishment and would probably be considered by the party attacked as a dissolution of all previous compacts by which it might be bound.”

Madison’s words were prophetic considering what occurred during Abraham Lincoln’s War of Involuntary Union in 1861. Like King George before him, Lincoln sought to forcibly prevent the secession of the southern states. He maintained that, somehow, the Union preceded the individual states and was therefore superior to them.

Historian Tom Woods deflates Lincoln’s fallacy by noting, “we are evidently instead supposed to believe that first there is a marriage, and the marriage in turn creates the bride and groom.” Since the states, acting on behalf of the people, created the Union, they logically must have preceded it. The creator is superior to the creation, but Lincoln thought otherwise and invaded the South to prevent their states from leaving the Union.

Remember, the states entered the union voluntarily. Nowhere did the state ratifying conventions of the Constitution allude to the idea that they were entering into a suicide pact of an involuntary perpetual union.

Nineteenth Century abolitionist Lysander Spooner offered this pointed assessment: “The principle, on which the war was waged by the North, was simply this: That men may rightfully be compelled to submit to, and support, a government that they do not want; and that resistance, on their part, makes them traitors and criminals.”

“No principle, that is possible to be named, can be more self-evidently false than this; or more self-evidently fatal to all political freedom. Yet it triumphed in the field, and is now assumed to be established. If it really be established, the number of slaves, instead of having been diminished by the war, has been greatly increased; for a man, thus subjected to a government that he does not want, is a slave.”

The act of formally parting ways with a government that has ceased to act in its proper role should undertaken as only as a peaceful last resort. But as our national government increasingly refuses to recognize or abide by any limits on its power, we may want to think twice before eliminating the word “secession” from our vocabulary.

After all, America wouldn’t have become a free nation without it.

Bryan Hyde is a news commentator and co-host of the Perspectives morning show on Fox News 1450 AM 93.1 FM. The opinions stated in this article are his and not representative of St. George News.

Email: bryanh@stgnews.com

Twitter: @youcancallmebry

Copyright St. George News, SaintGeorgeUtah.com LLC, 2012, all rights reserved.

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  34 Comments
  1. Karen November 29, 2012 at 10:01 am · Reply

    The facts about the so-called session petitions need clarifying. First of all, Mr. Hyde is incorrect when he writes that the petitions are “circulating” in the 50 states. A little history is in order here.

    “We the People” is a section of the whitehouse.gov website, launched September 22, 2011 for petitioning the current administration’s policy experts. Petitions that meet a certain threshold of signatures will be reviewed by officials in the Administration and an official response will be issued.

    People who are upset about the election of 2012 are just using the website to spout their secession nonsense. It is pretty simple to start or add your name to any petition on the website. It is just another silly way for them to vent.

    Mr. Hyde goes on to note that any serious session movement would originate in the legislatures, not “beg permission from the White House”. Again, the petition process stems from the “We the People” section of the Obama administration, so, of course that is where the petitions reside.

    What the secession petitions are is sour grapes. That, and the fact that racism is alive and well in this country. Look at the states that have the most signatures……….

    • william November 29, 2012 at 10:38 am · Reply

      The cries of ‘racist’ coming consistently from the left have done nothing to alleviate the problem, and some of what the President has said and done appears to encourage the problem instead.

      If I thought Obama was brilliant, it wouldn’t matter what color he was. I think Condi Rice is brilliant. A lot of us do, who oppose what Obama has done.

      But Mr. Hyde was talking of Washington DC policy’s, for the problem is not with one person, but as in 1776 a system. It was not Mr. Hyde that put in the Race Card that was you. Shame on you.

      • Jim Bryant November 29, 2012 at 2:35 pm · Reply

        William, does FOX News not spoon feed you the videos of Klan members calling for secession? You FOX viewers lead such a sheltered life. I guess that is necessary for the propaganda to work on you though, and it is quite effective. All of the FOX propaganda has broken your party for the next few generations. You are the laughing stock of the world.

        Start shooting, and you’ll be the dead laughing stock of the world, because I fully support using VX gas (on whole towns of traitors) and atomic bombs (on strategic weapons and production facilities) in the next civil war, as there is no sense getting loyal Americans killed trying to combat whole towns of traitors and securing weapons and precursor factories.

  2. Mark November 29, 2012 at 10:15 am · Reply

    Once again Bryan you are SPOT ON!

  3. michael west November 29, 2012 at 11:51 am · Reply

    …I agree with Karen. Such an exercise in immature petulance..

  4. Jim Bryant November 29, 2012 at 2:25 pm · Reply

    You have the audacity to bring up Madison to support your treasonous argument here?

    Let’s take a look at what Madison said on Feb. 21, 1811 in a big “up yours” to Congress, when he explained the meaning of the First Amendment:

    “Because the Bill exceeds the rightful authority, to which Governments are limited by the essential distinction between Civil and Religious functions, and violates, in particular, the Article of the Constitution of the United States which declares, that ‘Congress shall make no law respecting a Religious establishment.'”…..”Because the Bill vests in the said incorporated Church, an authority to provide for the support of the poor, and the education of poor children of the same, an authority, which being altogether superfluous if the provision is to be the result of pious charity, would be a precedent for giving to religious Societies as such, a legal agency in carrying into effect a public and civil duty.”

    If you are going to embrace Madison, I suggest you go all the way, traitor. Faith-Based Initiatives is patently unconstitutional. School vouchers are patently unconstitutional. Your OPINION does NOT trump Madison’s STATED INTENT.

    So, you traitors are as selective with the Founders as you are with your Bibles, it seems.

  5. Jim Bryant November 29, 2012 at 2:44 pm · Reply

    In fact, Bryan, since you seem to by reading Madison, would you care to quote Madison’s response to Jefferson’s “Tree of Liberty” bit you traitors love so much? How about quoting Jefferson’s subsequent retraction?

    I’ll go you one better.

    How about quoting Chief Justice Vinson’s rationale on this very subject in the case that upheld the convictions against the Communist Party of the USA, because they were actively organizing an Insurrection. Do you agree with Vinson? I do. I see no difference between the Commies then and the rhetoric of the right today, in fact, if you read beyond the Dennis case into Yates, Noto, and Scales, even the FEMA Camps bit was stolen by you guys from the commies. If you want to act like the commies, it’s time America treated you Teagaggers like the commies.

  6. Jim Bryant November 29, 2012 at 3:15 pm · Reply

    Bryan, since your resources seem limited, I did it for you… From Dennis v. United States, 341 US 494 (1951), The words of Chief Justice Vinson in the Majority Opinion: “Obviously, the words cannot mean that before the Government may act, it must wait until the putsch is about to be executed, the plans have been laid and the signal is awaited. If Government is aware that a group aiming at its overthrow is attempting to indoctrinate its members and to commit them to a course whereby they will strike when the leaders feel the circumstances permit, action by the Government is required. The argument that there is no need for Government to concern itself, for Government is strong, it possesses ample powers to put down a rebellion, it may defeat the revolution with ease needs no answer. For that is not the question. Certainly an attempt to overthrow the Government by force, even though doomed from the outset because of inadequate numbers of power of the revolutionists, is a sufficient evil for Congress to prevent. The damage which such attempts create both physically and politically to a nation makes it impossible to measure the validity in terms of the probability of success, or the immediacy of a successful attempt. In the instant case the trial judge charged the jury that they could not convict unless they found that petitioners intended to overthrow the Government [341 U.S. 494, 510] “as speedily as circumstances would permit.” This does not mean, and could not properly mean, that they would not strike until there was certainty of success. What was meant was that the revolutionists would strike when they thought the time was ripe. We must therefore reject the contention that success or probability of success is the criterion.”

  7. Jim Bryant November 29, 2012 at 3:19 pm · Reply

    Bryan, you can feel free to disagree with that standing Opinion of the SCOTUS, but if you do, please understand that I’ll also call you a commie-lover, as the only Americans to disagree with that, other than two documented Klan members on the same Court for that case, were communists.

  8. Jim Bryant November 29, 2012 at 3:59 pm · Reply

    On a side note, Bryan, I agree that these Secession petitions are going to go nowhere, but, for every one signing, there are 50 to 100 not (close to accurate on that too). What will happen next is going to be interesting. I fully anticipate several major attacks from lone wolves, in an attempt to foment a fullscale insurrection, and given the numbers committed to such a course of action, they might just succeed. We’ve been taking names and addresses ever since the guns at town hall meetings and threats of civil war started, and the lists are HUGE, and include Congressmen and Senators, and more business owners than you can shake a stick at, and we are more than ready to hand these lists over to all loyal Americans, the CIA, and DOD. It will be a web release, with full evidence and screen captures and audio and video evidence (very professionally done, and there are several million people documented, heh, McCarthy had a list of 218, and most of that list was bullshit). Tell your buddies that if they have been threatening such in public, there is a strong possibility they are already on the list, possibly with video and/or audio of them doing it. It will be a quick civil war, you guys have big mouths.

    Interestingly, in the Yates case, according to Justice Frankfurter (IIRC), the peak of the Communist movement from Canada down to Mexico only had less than 24,000 members. It is high time we had some Committee Hearings on the matter of today’s Insurrectionists (this time on the right).

    “Are you, or have you ever been a member of the Tea PArty”… It’s coming, mark my words, and I support it fully. “All Enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC”.

  9. Jim Bryant November 29, 2012 at 5:27 pm · Reply

    Brian, one last thing here. You work for FOX. FOX is one of the primary vectors fomenting Insurrection, and this is indisputable. FOX, it’s transmission facilities, studio facilities, satellites, and a lot of it’s employees become valid military targets when the Teagaggers start shooting. Just a heads-up, we also keep track of your network’s indoctrination methods.

    I want to see Murdoch with a Davy Crockett strapped to him on live TV when it happens. It would be both poetic and beautiful. Vaporize him into a plasma at ten million degrees on live TV.

  10. Jim Bryant November 29, 2012 at 5:35 pm · Reply

    A bit of data on Davy Crockett:

    Test: Little Feller I
    Time: 17:00 17 July 1962 (GMT)
    Location: NTS, Area 18
    Test Height and Type: Surface, 40 feet
    Yield: 18 Tons

    Test: Little Feller II
    Time: 19:00 7 July 1962 (GMT)
    Location: NTS, Area 18
    Test Height and Type: Surface, 3 feet
    Yield: 22 Tons

    The W-54 was later improved for a yield of 250 tons, but the yield is field-adjustable from 20 tons to 250 tons.

    I want to see Murdoch PERSONALLY nuked on live TV if you Teagaggers Insurrect.

  11. Jim Bryant November 29, 2012 at 5:41 pm · Reply

    Brian, also, (finally), SM-3 missiles, with kinetic warheads, boosted by an Atlas or Delta into LEO are quite capable of taking out Murdoch’s constellation in geosynch.

    If Civil War happens, FOX IS A VALID TARGET.

  12. Dick November 29, 2012 at 6:34 pm · Reply

    Right up front my candidate did not get in ! I may have been really pissed off if a majority of the US voted for Romney and the electoral college put Obama in. But it did not happen that way! This is a democracy ant that is what makes America great! But like Friday night football you have winners and losers! i have never seen a NFL team quit because they lost, they are back in there the next week fighting. A secessionist is a looser who does not believe in Democracy, and wants to impose his will over the majority!

  13. Bryant November 29, 2012 at 7:20 pm · Reply

    Secession is not revolution. Jim you are barking up the wrong tree. How is it over throwing the federal government to want to leave?

    • Jim Bryant November 29, 2012 at 11:00 pm · Reply

      I guess you don’t pay much attention. Do you watch FOX or something?

      The whole Secession thing is new, until a few weeks ago all the talk was Insurrection. I think the whole Secession thing is a first step for them, to give them an excuse in their meth addled minds. They are doomed to fail on it, and it’s all about what happens after. After all, these are the people who have been threatening Insurrection and waving their guns around for several years now.

      Hell, they are everywhere, there is a guy two houses down that is on the list with plenty of evidence. Then the Teagagger a block away, and the one on the other end of his street.

      Don’t play dumb with me. We ALL know them. They can’t help but run their mouths constantly. Are you one?

  14. Jim Bryant November 29, 2012 at 11:16 pm · Reply

    Has anyone discussed the hypothetical consequences of Secession?

    Let’s look at Texas Secession as a case example:

    After all, if they secede, we will remove ALL US property. I don’t even want a US owned stapler left behind.

    That property that cannot be removed will have to be destroyed.

    For instance, in Westside Fort Worth, there is USAF Plant #4. This plant has gone by various names in the past, but currently it is Lockheed-Martin. Under the floor of the factory, where they build F-22 and F-35 stealth fighters, is a 150kT self destruct device, surrounded by a well-marked keep-out zone above the manhole cover (I have seen this and the signage with my own eyes). We cannot allow Texas to manufacture Stealth fighters.

    Loral-Vought in Dallas manufactures B-2 Bomber wings. Boom.

    Pantex, near Amarillo, built to withstand a direct 20MT hit, has and continues to manufacture EVERY nuclear weapon in the US arsenal. Once the product and essential documents and equipment are removed (if possible, and probably not possible), it will take something much larger than 20MT to deny Texas the ability to build nuclear weapons. The Soviet 58MT bomb in 1961 in Siberia was actually heard as a “strange crackling sound” in England, and the fireball exceeded 200,000 feet in altitude.

    Texas should have to pay for the relocations and evacuations. I don’t want my tax dollars supporting TRAITORS.

    (The above only covered three sites out of well over one hundred that will have to be physically destroyed. Also, I did not say anything about the necessary assassinations of key talent that turns TRAITOR and joins Texas. We cannot have them redeveloping such weapons systems)

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/afp-4.htm

    This isn’t fun and games. Texas alone will require over 30 nuclear detonations, if they truly wish to secede. I say let them go, but those facilities will have to be destroyed. Others too, but only about 30 will require nukes.

    http://www.pantex.com/Pages/default.aspx

    “Highly reliable people”???? My ass. David runs the “Repent Amarillo” paramilitary terrorist group. He’s one of their security personnel. Militant anti-Government religious extremist militia group leader on the security team. We WILL have to kill personnel AT Pantex, even before securing the product and nuking the site. I say send in a SEAL Team and take out the key talent that is loyal to the Secessionists too. We can always train new physicists.

    There is also the Fed in Dallas, nuclear hardened vaults. Big bomb right downtown, no more Dallas skyline. The money factory in Blue Mound, I would lean towards nuclear targeting on that as well. Conventional bombs might not destroy all of the plates and money machines. Key talent there loyal to the secessionists will have to be assassinated as well.

    Then there will be the blockade, If they think they can survive on their own, let them try. I don’t want one slice of bread or grain of wheat to go into Texas. They will not be allowed into the USA, and no-fly zones should be enforced. We should treat them like we do North Korea.

    Welcome to reality, Teagaggers. This isn’t fun and games.

    (The list of sites that would be manditorily destroyed is large, and that’s even if we ALLOW Texas to secede, and have no other military action against them.).

    Of course, their Secessionist prelude won’t go anywhere, and they will then resort to more extreme means ranging from Lone Wolf Terrorism, all the way to their widely promised Insurrection. These people are so far gone, it’s a foregone conclusion.

    • william November 30, 2012 at 1:12 pm · Reply

      To Torie Jim
      Let’s look at AMERICAN Secession as a case example:
      After all, if they secede, we will remove ALL England property. I don’t even want a England owned stapler left behind.
      That property that cannot be removed will have to be destroyed.
      For instance, in Boston, there is Englash Ship Building. This plant has gone by various names in the past, but currently where they build Whaling and cargo ships. We cannot allow New England to manufacture Ships.
      Boom.
      New York and all the other 13 should have to pay for the relocations and evacuations. I don’t want my tax dollars supporting TRAITORS.
      (The above only covered thirteen states that will have to be physically destroyed. Also, I did not say anything about the necessary assassinations of key talent that turns TRAITOR and joins the states. We cannot have them redeveloping such weapons systems)
      This isn’t fun and games. America alone will require over 30 canon detonations, if they truly wish to secede. I say let them go, but those facilities will have to be destroyed. Others too, but only about 13 will require bombartment.
      George Washington Militant anti-Government religious extremist militia group leader on the security team. We WILL have to kill personnel at Valley Forge, even before securing the product and nuking the site. I say send in a SEAL Team and take out the key talent that is loyal to the Secessionists too. We can always train new physicists.
      Big bomb right downtown, no more New York skyline. The money factory in Blue Mound, I would lean towards nuclear targeting on that as well. Conventional bombs might not destroy all of the plates and money machines. Key talent there loyal to the secessionists will have to be assassinated as well.
      Then there will be the blockade, If they think they can survive on their own, let them try. I don’t want one slice of bread or grain of wheat to go into America. They will not be allowed into the England, and no-fly zones should be enforced. We should treat them like we do France.
      Welcome to reality, Teagaggers. This isn’t fun and games.
      (The list of sites that would be manditorily destroyed is large, and that’s even if we ALLOW America to secede, and have no other military action against them.).
      Of course, their Secessionist prelude won’t go anywhere, and they will then resort to more extreme means ranging from Lone Wolf Terrorism, all the way to their widely promised Insurrection. These people are so far gone, it’s a foregone conclusion.

      • Jim Bryant December 2, 2012 at 11:00 am · Reply

        Okay, since someone didn’t like the way that was worded, let’s try it again, this time in a much more polished form.

        Since you call me a “Torie” (can’t you guys spell, the proper term is “Tory”), this opens a whole new can of worms, that is well-researched and will be in play for the next two years, and indeed is already in play.

        We live in an amazing age. We are the very first generation to be able to read, in petabytes of high resolution photographic scans, the original documents, books, phamplets, and letters of the 17th, 18th, 19th, and 20 centuries. So much has come out that we can now call preachers liars, and provide the original documents to call them such.

        Until now, they have relied on the fact that to debunk their lies, a person would have to spend tens of thousands of dollars in travel expenses just to have access to source documents, and even more to categorize, analyze, and collate the results. They counted on people to take their word for things without question.

        Now, any analysis of the mid to late 18th century will produce some startling revelations. The Tea Party brought this period front and center, so, the Tea Party invited the response that is in progress on this front, and will be very public in the next two years, as we use it as just one of the justifications for the eviction of the Teagaggers from Congress.

        There are MANY intersects between that period’s writings, and today’s Tea Party. So many in fact, one has to wonder why the Tea Party doesn’t dress up in RED. You see, the Tea Party today takes the views of the British Loyalist colonists of the Revolutionary War.

        No wonder Santorum wants the books all burned. Just wait until we tell the public all about the Clerical Magistrates, and their opinion of the Revolutionaries, and exactly WHY we have seperation of Church and State. They will see the truth of it, especially in light of the most recent of MANY attempts since the Revoution by the same kind of people to get that absolute Clerical power back.

        Then there are the economic and fudicial aspects, of the Revolution against the King’s Corporation that have been misrepresented.

        Like I said, no wonder Santorum wants all the books burned.

        I do have a right to respond to a man supporting TREASON against the United States of America that has the audacity to call me a “Torie”, and because I do so with facts, please take it easy on the censorship, as I am not attempting to diss the moderators here, I am just making a point here based on facts you can verify yourselves with any decent review of the documents at archive.org, google books, scribd, and countless other preservation projects.

        • Joyce Kuzmanic
          Joyce Kuzmanic December 2, 2012 at 12:30 pm · Reply

          Mr. Bryant, you will have to find another playground. Your comments on these articles are plenteous enough at this point. Visit us another time. Today, you are done here.
          Joyce Kuzmanic
          Editor-in-Chief

          • Jim Bryant December 2, 2012 at 12:46 pm ·

            No problem Ms. Kuzmanic. I do appreciate the opportunity you have given for someone to try to talk some sense into these people. With any luck, they start taking their Thorazine again…

            Jim

  15. william November 30, 2012 at 9:27 am · Reply

    Maybe the Liberals should study hate speech a little more. Apparently they don’t get it. Don’t we have the right to our opinions? Don’t we have the right to exercise the freedom of our beliefs? We do—for now. But that may change as a result of the hate speech of liberals like yourself, which is so often directed at anyone who disagree with them. You like to name-call a lot(traitors,commies, hate-mongers, etc.), label us as commies when it is you who is acting like the commies and taking away our FREE SPEECH. “We’ve been taking names and addresses ……” In doing this you commit the very error of which you accuse us.
    Ah, but such reasoning does not stop you from your doublespeak and hypocrisy (probably because they haven’t thought things through very far). The name-calling, accusatory, intolerant liberals are quick to judge and slow to love. They are eager to blame while ignoring their own guilt. They readily condemn and remain blind to how they do the very thing of which they accuse others. Who knows? Perhaps their attitudes have been shaped by their own hate speech more than they realize.

  16. michael west November 30, 2012 at 4:08 pm · Reply

    William is right in saying that we liberals all too often say angry and spiteful things.

    But what do we usually get steamed about? What makes our blood boil?

    The continuance of racism, sexism, the brutalization of the poor and the working poor. The voter suppression in Florida as admitted by high-ranking Republicans there..

    The Right is schizophrenic.. they brag about their rugged individual pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps ..but yet they whine about the unions and the power ganging up on them.

    Face it, the rich and the powerful don’t need protection. They always do more than fine. But who else will stand up for the poor, the elderly, women, children and minorities. Certainly not Fox and the Right.

    Liberals don’t want to hurt the well off. We just want to make sure that the less well off don’t starve or become homeless.

    When Mitt insinuates that 47% of America (..children, those who lost their jobs, the working poor, the elderly) are moochers and parasites, we liberals get mad as hell.

    The Danes have a saying, “Don’t piss on us and then tell us we stink.”

    • Walt November 30, 2012 at 6:49 pm · Reply

      Damn Jim,
      all the folks want is for the govt to abide by the Constitution, or leave them alone if the govt is going to trample all over it. Bryan talks about PEACEFUL secession, and the first thing you want to do is start nuking, and gassing people– WTF! Is it being a traitor to not follow a tyrannical govt? Is it being a traitor to ask for the return of the lands in its borders that are under control of the feds? What do you want, everyone bowing down to a supreme master? I think we would be better off with LESS federal, state, and local govt which only seek to take more freedom, and liberties away from us instead of allowing us more. My German friend told me recently that “You Americans have less freedom now then when I visited in the 80’s.”

      The current govt is out of control, and that includes Dems, and Reps. Neither side has our best interests at heart. We have class warfare being shoved down our throats with all of the rich vs middle class B.S.. The govt continually seeks new revenue (taxes) yet they rarely entertain substantial cuts in spending. Why can’t the govt reduce its size, as opposed to continuing to grow at an ever increasing rate? What is the worst that could happen if Texas, or any other state left the union?

      As to the comments to starving children,and poor—B.S. scare tactics. Humans are innately social
      creatures, and will come to the aid of their friends, neighbors, and community. I have seen it first hand where I live when my community has chipped in to help a local who has had difficulties of any nature IE; health, medical, financial, etc. How is the govt helping the poor when they are wasting OUR tax dollars nationally, dollars that could be better spent locally, and with less fraud? How is teaching generations to feed at a govt trough helping the poor, as opposed to giving them the skills, or the hand up needed
      to make a living on their own? Free will, and free markets will do more for the poor, elderly, and indigent than any govt program will. We have city govt banning people from feeding the homless, freaking brilliant! That’s how you discourage people from wanting to HELP MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN THEIR COMMUNITY.

      As to workers pay, I’m sorry, but there are some jobs that simply are not worth minimum wage to do. We also have the freedom to walk from a job if we feel we are not being treated well. I took a $15,000 a year cut in pay because I didn’t feel I was being respected enough for the skills I have. I stayed till I was vested in the profit sharing plan 100%, and immediately gave my 2 weeks notice the next week. I walked away from $60+K a year, great benefits, and comfy work environment, moved to NV, and took a job for $45k , less benefits, and less comfy, but I was happy-for a time. When that situation turned sour, I left for another job which pays lots more,no benefits, but I am treated well by the management. If more workers had the guts to just walk when they felt mistreated one of two things would happen. Companies will treat the workers better to keep them, or they will find out that some jobs are only worth so much-no more, and they will need to get better skills to make more money. Good businesses prosper, and bad ones go under in a free market economy. Get the govt thumb off businesses, and watch the economy take off. And no, it will not lead to filthy air, and polluted water. Why? If they do the people will shut them down because NO ONE wants to breath dirty air, or drink polluted water.

      Jim Bryant, plese seek some professional help , so you can get you anger managment issues under control. Nuking fellow countrymen? Seriously!?!? And you think the Tea Party members are violent!

      Peace

      • Jim Bryant December 1, 2012 at 12:08 am · Reply

        Walt, Those facilities are US owned National Security facilities.

        We are not going to allow a breakaway renegade Republic to have stealth capability using our own factories, parts, and machines.

        We are not going to allow them to manufacture chemical weapons.

        We are not going to allow them to manufacture missiles.

        We are not going to allow them to manufacture nuclear weapons.

        All of these facilities are owned by the People of the United States of America. Texas holds no right or title to any such property, real, physical, or intellectual.

        They should be given aple warning to evacuate their people from areas that will have to be destroyed, but they should bear full cost of said evacuations. I refuse to allow my taxes to pay for it, and all of America will agree on that.

        This is a dose of reality, that’s all. If Texas were ALLOWED to secede, all of these things must happen.

        The blockade and sanctions will be a punishment though. The United States destroying it’s own National Security Infrastructure there is just the price of secession. Like I said, I don’t want one dollar left there, and I don’t want one US-owned stapler left behind. If they reject their membership in this country, they should not enjoy ANY benefit of such after seperation.

        If you want them to have any of the items mentioned, I think you need to be on a list.

        On a side note, Commanche Peak, for instance does not own the fuel. The Fuel is under license. The fuel is owned by the United States Government, along with ALL transuranic isotopes present. That and other facilities present an even bigger problem. We can’t have them making dirty bombs against us.

        As for “tyrannical”, you need to take your meds.

      • Jim Bryant December 1, 2012 at 12:12 am · Reply

        And all of this is just mentioning a handful of sites in one state (out of a much larger list for just that state).

        Shall we discuss other states playing this game too?

        We cannot have Alabama manufacturing ICBMs… Catch the drift?

      • Jim Bryant December 1, 2012 at 12:22 am · Reply

        Oh, and we sure as hell are not going to allow them to ruin our economy by printing money with US owned money printing presses.

        If you support their Secession, you have to agree that I am correct. There is no other option. These are the terms they agreed to when they agreed to have such facilities sited there.

        Take USAF Plant #4 for instance. Do you really BELIEVE that that self destruct was put there to prevent the Russians from taking the facility? Give me a break. That device was put there because of INTERNAL SECURITY issues.

      • Jim Bryant December 1, 2012 at 12:36 am · Reply

        Finally, to respond to your other dubious “concern”…

        Those that choose to Insurrect when Secession fails, and it will, declare WAR on the United States of America and it’s people. Civil War is hell, and we will not waste troops on 100% enemy areas. There is no sense in letting you guys kill our guys.

        VX gas is very appropriate in MANY areas. The number of lives it can save number close to 300 million.

      • michael west December 1, 2012 at 2:32 am · Reply

        Walt, we progressives can’t understand why the worshipers of the free market and minimal government support police forces and the military as necessary for protection, but somehow believe that before the introduction of the Pure Food & Drug act and the EPA no one was seriously polluting and poisoning. The late 19th century and early 20th were glaring examples of every sort of massive irresponsibility and destructive behavior by many practitioners of the “Free Market.”
        Be consistent. Either you want a government to try to protect you from all criminals or you don’t. Bernie Maddoff stole 50 billion. That’s more than every mugger combined in the entire history of the United States!

      • Jim Bryant December 1, 2012 at 1:58 pm · Reply

        Walt, also, if you think that a State like Texas should keep United States National Security Infrastructure, they can feel free to try, but do you have ANY idea of how many TANKS, ATTACK HELECOPTERS, FIGHTER PLANES, AND BOMBERS are already IN Texas? If they try to keep any of those sites, that is Insurrection, and not Secession. That is an Act of War, and will be responded to appropriately.

        You can play all of the South Carolina games you want, but Fort Sumpter was US National Security Infrastructure, and South Carolina had no right to it, no matter where it was located. It wasn’t theirs.

  17. Jim Bryant December 1, 2012 at 12:49 am · Reply

    Walt, you guys are so far gone that I think all of this is a foregone conclusion. You and your compatriots are so well indoctrinated and radicalized that you can’t help it. Read what you wrote.

    We have been paying attention.

    I’m just giving you a dose of reality. We are not going to let you turn this into a Sarajevo, or Beiruit, or Rwanda. We will want this one over FAST, and by ANY means necessary, should your side choose to Inurrect, and at the level of radicalization, it’s only a matter of time now before you do.

    FOX did it’s job well. Go figure, it’s owned by a TRAITOR to Australia, and a Saudi.

  18. Biff December 1, 2012 at 10:16 am · Reply

    Don’t forget to cue up the banjo music before you start reading Hyde’s column.

  19. Jerry December 1, 2012 at 11:09 pm · Reply

    Jim Bryant, where did they find you? Are you off your meds or something? I am sorry if you will lose your welfare check when the Red states stop paying for the blue states, but you reap what you sow. Life will go on, but you may just have to work again.

  20. Roy J December 4, 2012 at 7:19 pm · Reply

    Wow! And the above should be enough to prove that all attempts at secession ever and anywhere will abominably fail to end without civil war!

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